From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCwqcPwBBoEcoF4-w@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 03 13:44:46 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QdTX2-0001x4-3e; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:46 -0700 Received: by wyh13 with SMTP id 13sf8635051wyh.16 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VF5xTlC/Ge0qgAg+0R8KWXP1dnT3VvJkdb1swr1Q8q0=; b=b6Qj7EnwG6G41sKAhPNUVcZVnyNkbaQfayUyH7R3wUZpADXSpc1Un6zGSwzmO070em 5yc7WV2uf92hkRZXqPpXt7oBqOve1kx8Ayc/kihlBlOzv47+zxfxvVP54jze+hZK/9sL X/VfBL9yxkhv7EYxVChAhGt7lOUzfG7hCI1v0= Received: by 10.216.37.18 with SMTP id x18mr1885826wea.28.1309725872533; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.235.213 with SMTP id u63ls1869877weq.0.gmail; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.10 with SMTP id x10mr195807wes.2.1309725871134; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.10 with SMTP id x10mr195806wes.2.1309725871107; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f47.google.com (mail-ww0-f47.google.com [74.125.82.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si5755758wbo.3.2011.07.03.13.44.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.47; Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27so4249634wwf.28 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.235.95 with SMTP id t73mr4640880weq.10.1309725869574; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110703203239.GA2602@alice.local> References: <20110703203239.GA2602@alice.local> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:44:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] zasni+gerna+cenba+vreji From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f1a643588b304a7305146 --0015176f1a643588b304a7305146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Oh, well that's good. I'm glad to hear that sa isn't just being completely thrown out. It seems like it has a lot of potential if it just gets a little more precisely defined such that it doesn't scare people off from using it On Jul 3, 2011 4:32 PM, ".alyn.post." wrote: > Speaking specifically of SA, I find myself of late in the position > of defending the existing behavior (as largely expressed in the CLL > with the "typical and obvious" clarifications from Magic Words on > the wiki and other documents. > > I've been working on this aspect of the PEG grammar, and SA is > indeed the most complex of the magic words. I'm not of the position > that this complexity is somehow in a different class; that it is > so much more complex than other magic words that it is worth > not working on or redefining. > > I'm still working on this project, so don't have a fully formed > opinion yet. I have understood the page mentioned by you to remove > SA to focus on working on other parts of the grammar, no to > fundamentally remove SA. > > -Alan > > On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 02:49:31PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: >> When asked about "gije" someone replied with a link to the page for the >> zasni gerna cenba vreji >> ([1] http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=zasni+gerna+cenba+vreji) >> I don't see anything about "gije" on that page but it could very well be >> that that construct being legal and having the same meaning as "gi'e" is >> just a bi-product of one of the changes listed. Could someone go into a >> little detail on which of the changes on that page makes "gije" behave >> like "gi'e"? >> Also, in reading through that page it seems sad that "sa" would just >> disappear. Couldn't we just give it a meaning that's more specific? My >> first thought is to redefine it to always mean "erase everything back to >> the last '.i' ". So many times I want to say "ok, I screwed up this entire >> sentence beyond hope... crap, su will kill the whole discourse but to use >> si I'm going to have to spend a few minutes figuring out how many words >> I've said." Then I usually end up just making a whole new bridi to say >> "ignore that last convoluted mess. What I meant to say was: ". >> A second thought; what if we redefine sa to mean "take the next word as a >> token and erase backwards until you find that token". Thus "mi citka lo >> cmalu cifnu .y. .oicai sa citka cikygau lo cmalu cifnu" results in the >> much more savory "mi cigygau lo cmalu cifnu". >> And finally, my last question. Should I have put these questions/comments >> on the tiki page? I haven't done much with tiki/wiki so it'd be new to me >> but I do want to discuss this stuff in the proper location. >> ki'e mu'o mi'e la .cribe. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> References >> >> Visible links >> 1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=zasni+gerna+cenba+vreji > > -- > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015176f1a643588b304a7305146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh, well that's good.=A0 I'm glad to hear that sa isn't just= being completely thrown out. It seems like it has a lot of potential if it= just gets a little more precisely defined such that it doesn't scare p= eople off from using it

On Jul 3, 2011 4:32 PM, ".alyn.post." = <alyn.post@lodockikuma= zvati.org> wrote:
> Speaking specifically= of SA, I find myself of late in the position
> of defending the existing behavior (as largely expressed in the CLL> with the "typical and obvious" clarifications from Magic Wo= rds on
> the wiki and other documents.
>
> I've been= working on this aspect of the PEG grammar, and SA is
> indeed the most complex of the magic words. I'm not of the positi= on
> that this complexity is somehow in a different class; that it is=
> so much more complex than other magic words that it is worth
> not working on or redefining.
>
> I'm still working o= n this project, so don't have a fully formed
> opinion yet. I ha= ve understood the page mentioned by you to remove
> SA to focus on wo= rking on other parts of the grammar, no to
> fundamentally remove SA.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Su= n, Jul 03, 2011 at 02:49:31PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>> When= asked about "gije" someone replied with a link to the page for t= he
>> zasni gerna cenba vreji
>> ([1]http://www= .lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dzasni+gerna+cenba+vreji)
>= > I don't see anything about "gije" on that page but it= could very well be
>> that that construct being legal and having the same meaning as = "gi'e" is
>> just a bi-product of one of the chan= ges listed. Could someone go into a
>> little detail on which o= f the changes on that page makes "gije" behave
>> like "gi'e"?
>> Also, in reading thro= ugh that page it seems sad that "sa" would just
>> di= sappear. Couldn't we just give it a meaning that's more specific? M= y
>> first thought is to redefine it to always mean "erase ever= ything back to
>> the last '.i' ". So many times I= want to say "ok, I screwed up this entire
>> sentence bey= ond hope... crap, su will kill the whole discourse but to use
>> si I'm going to have to spend a few minutes figuring out ho= w many words
>> I've said." Then I usually end up just= making a whole new bridi to say
>> "ignore that last conv= oluted mess. What I meant to say was: ".
>> A second thought; what if we redefine sa to mean "take the= next word as a
>> token and erase backwards until you find tha= t token". Thus "mi citka lo
>> cmalu cifnu .y. .oicai= sa citka cikygau lo cmalu cifnu" results in the
>> much more savory "mi cigygau lo cmalu cifnu".
>= > And finally, my last question. Should I have put these questions/co= mments
>> on the tiki page? I haven't done much with tiki/w= iki so it'd be new to me
>> but I do want to discuss this stuff in the proper location.
= >> ki'e mu'o mi'e la .cribe.
>>
>> = --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group,= send email to lojban@googlegrou= ps.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit t= his group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>> References
>>
>> Visible links<= br>>> 1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page= =3Dzasni+gerna+cenba+vreji
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>=
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this grou= p, send email to lojban@googlegr= oups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0015176f1a643588b304a7305146--