From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDA8srxBBoEFRIdtg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 29 06:44:45 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmnMn-0006nO-VO; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:45 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf11120660pzk.1 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Ow3ty31siCj707B1R4vCIAfd3E/SftMTMJsdG6eKWuE=; b=dExHGOOSEdrgWBjCgv2Bkf4B9kaJud6CWf48+UV3qAmOxyfbjK8fcM9+XVgUbkeqSq YFe4l2NtibRpKLRLgp+da1+VJ6TRqysACm7Y0rF5zFEDFxT9UZhy1+T8z2sNEJdaz8ze E1kQq0Mp40vtmMHmn31fbr+nMR+PJXXLBEcsQ= Received: by 10.143.26.34 with SMTP id d34mr310941wfj.2.1311947072016; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.139.17 with SMTP id m17ls66775wfd.3.gmail; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.46.134 with SMTP id v6mr318837pbm.97.1311947071079; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.46.134 with SMTP id v6mr318836pbm.97.1311947070960; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f47.google.com (mail-pz0-f47.google.com [209.85.210.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v9si9062826pbc.2.2011.07.29.06.44.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.47; Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so6320903pzk.34 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.10.41 with SMTP id f9mr2290682pbb.90.1311947070690; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.166 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:44:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] groupyness in definitions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5395ed01cd48b04a9357b1b --bcaec5395ed01cd48b04a9357b1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy.xipa" is a single numeric string, all-X(1) (remember that "paxy." -> "1X" is considered a number, an= d can do all things that numbers do (quantify sumti, etc.)). Since you want to make this two different "words" you have to end the quantifier part with a boi, "ro boi xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want to say, fo= r example, "xy boi zy darxi" if you mean "X hits Z", and not "xy zy darxi" ("XZ hits") (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reasons unknown to me, but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically --gejyspa On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that xyxipa worked like "broda" > and could work in tanru and whatnot. Everywhere where selkik was > using {me} I intended it that way. > > And yeah, now that I think of it, I guess I would agree that {lo se > vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the > m&ms will certainly have the same color as others in the same bag. > > 2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > >> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've sinc= e > >> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). But at the time, I ca= me > up > >> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka > xyxire}. > > > > You have three sumti there: "ro xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a > > fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo". > > > > (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the whole > > thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I agree > > that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that.) > > > > You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but it's a sumti. > > > >> Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if that {drata= } > was > >> really doing what I wanted it to. If we're talking about {ro lo broda= } > then > >> we're saying "all of those things that broda which are within the scop= e > of > >> our discourse". But now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness > is > >> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all of that". > >> Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa taken as individual= s > >> are different from each of (all of the things in the set xyxipa minus > itself > >> as individuals) in property xyxire". > > > > ro da poi me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o > xyxire > > > > I don't think "vrici" requires such total difference among the x1's > though. > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec5395ed01cd48b04a9357b1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy= .xipa" is a single numeric string,=A0all-X(1)=A0 (remember that "= paxy." -> "1X" is considered a number, and can do all thi= ngs that numbers do (quantify sumti, etc.)).=A0 Since you want to make this= two different "words" you have to end the quantifier part with a= boi, "ro boi xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want t= o say, for example, "xy boi=A0zy =A0darxi" if you mean "X hi= ts Z", and not "xy zy darxi" ("XZ hits")
=A0
=A0 (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reaso= ns unknown to me, but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Sorry, for some reason I was thi= nking that xyxipa worked like "broda"
and could work in tanru = and whatnot. =A0Everywhere where selkik was
using {me} I intended it that way.

And yeah, now that I think of it,= I guess I would agree that {lo se
vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu = vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the
m&ms will certainly have = the same color as others in the same bag.

2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>>> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in = lojban (I've since
>> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). =A0But at the time= , I came up
>> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata= xyxipa lo ka xyxire}.
>
> You have three sumti there: "ro= xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a
> fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo".
>
>= (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the wh= ole
> thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I ag= ree
> that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that= .)
>
> You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but= it's a sumti.
>
>> Then I thought some more about it an= d started wondering if that {drata} was
>> really doing what I wanted it to. =A0If we're talking about {r= o lo broda} then
>> we're saying "all of those things tha= t broda which are within the scope of
>> our discourse". =A0B= ut now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is=
>> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all = of that".
>> Is there a way to say "all of the things in= xyxipa taken as individuals
>> are=A0different=A0from each of (al= l of the things in the set xyxipa minus itself
>> as individuals) in property xyxire".
>
> ro da po= i me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o xyxire<= br>>
> I don't think "vrici" requires such total dif= ference among the x1's though.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You receiv= ed this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojba= n" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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