From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDU9crxBBoEyI43AA@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 29 06:51:30 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmnTK-000559-Np; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:30 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf11133446pzk.1 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Pqo1iZsAFWY39sa2SFKj4wRr1yjdIu4cqhKzuMD+fIE=; b=iTnis9tYYoWFZeJJ8XIWxqMONOG2D9vW08xl5q+Pbo8f7ZduhNtcpU/td1ChnqV673 S3JbbJeI5b+mgviG2xMEaMCpksL64CrL2nLyEIDfiW/ZJicFltXbTDzzEodTZ5xpCpd2 WQ/SdS/TMPH7s7X/rX2/kFVnOHrG/W3MPu0Ko= Received: by 10.142.50.2 with SMTP id x2mr314268wfx.25.1311947476057; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.59.41 with SMTP id w9ls13304559pbq.1.gmail; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.39.167 with SMTP id q7mr325295pbk.64.1311947475169; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.39.167 with SMTP id q7mr325294pbk.64.1311947475140; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f43.google.com (mail-pz0-f43.google.com [209.85.210.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l1si9090454pbi.0.2011.07.29.06.51.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.43; Received: by mail-pz0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 1so6716637pzk.30 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.42.129 with SMTP id o1mr2196544pbl.358.1311947474828; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.166 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:51:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:51:14 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] groupyness in definitions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5430530337cc604a9359355 --bcaec5430530337cc604a9359355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, the answer to my parenthetical is that it expects the "xy" to also be followed by a boi (CLL 18.13, despite the fact that is directly se natfe by CLL 17.11.5) --gejyspa On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy.xipa" is a single numeric > string, all-X(1) (remember that "paxy." -> "1X" is considered a number, = and > can do all things that numbers do (quantify sumti, etc.)). Since you wan= t > to make this two different "words" you have to end the quantifier part wi= th > a boi, "ro boi xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want to say, = for > example, "xy boi zy darxi" if you mean "X hits Z", and not "xy zy darxi" > ("XZ hits") > > (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reasons unknown to m= e, > but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically > > --gejyspa > > > > On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: > >> Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that xyxipa worked like "broda" >> and could work in tanru and whatnot. Everywhere where selkik was >> using {me} I intended it that way. >> >> And yeah, now that I think of it, I guess I would agree that {lo se >> vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the >> m&ms will certainly have the same color as others in the same bag. >> >> 2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> >> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've sin= ce >> >> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). But at the time, I >> came up >> >> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka >> xyxire}. >> > >> > You have three sumti there: "ro xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a >> > fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo". >> > >> > (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the whole >> > thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I agree >> > that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that.) >> > >> > You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but it's a sumti. >> > >> >> Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if that {drat= a} >> was >> >> really doing what I wanted it to. If we're talking about {ro lo brod= a} >> then >> >> we're saying "all of those things that broda which are within the sco= pe >> of >> >> our discourse". But now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"nes= s >> is >> >> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all of that". >> >> Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa taken as individua= ls >> >> are different from each of (all of the things in the set xyxipa minus >> itself >> >> as individuals) in property xyxire". >> > >> > ro da poi me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o >> xyxire >> > >> > I don't think "vrici" requires such total difference among the x1's >> though. >> > >> > mu'o mi'e xorxes >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec5430530337cc604a9359355 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 Okay, the answer to my parenthetical is that it e= xpects the "xy" to also be followed by a boi (CLL 18.13, despite = the fact that is directly se natfe by CLL 17.11.5)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturnian= sky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy.xipa" is a = single numeric string,=A0all-X(1)=A0 (remember that "paxy." ->= "1X" is considered a number, and can do all things that numbers = do (quantify sumti, etc.)).=A0 Since you want to make this two different &q= uot;words" you have to end the quantifier part with a boi, "ro bo= i xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want to say, for exampl= e, "xy boi=A0zy =A0darxi" if you mean "X hits Z", and n= ot "xy zy darxi" ("XZ hits")
=A0
=A0 (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reaso= ns unknown to me, but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, for some reason I was thi= nking that xyxipa worked like "broda"
and could work in tanru = and whatnot. =A0Everywhere where selkik was
using {me} I intended it that way.

And yeah, now that I think of it,= I guess I would agree that {lo se
vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu = vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the
m&ms will certainly have = the same color as others in the same bag.

2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici"= ; in lojban (I've since
>> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). =A0But at the time= , I came up
>> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata= xyxipa lo ka xyxire}.
>
> You have three sumti there: "ro= xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a
> fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo".
>
>= (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the wh= ole
> thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I ag= ree
> that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that= .)
>
> You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but= it's a sumti.
>
>> Then I thought some more about it an= d started wondering if that {drata} was
>> really doing what I wanted it to. =A0If we're talking about {r= o lo broda} then
>> we're saying "all of those things tha= t broda which are within the scope of
>> our discourse". =A0B= ut now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is=
>> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all = of that".
>> Is there a way to say "all of the things in= xyxipa taken as individuals
>> are=A0different=A0from each of (al= l of the things in the set xyxipa minus itself
>> as individuals) in property xyxire".
>
> ro da po= i me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o xyxire<= br>>
> I don't think "vrici" requires such total dif= ference among the x1's though.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You receiv= ed this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojba= n" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<= br> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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