From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDQ98rxBBoE7GUcUg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 29 06:55:46 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmnXR-0008Q9-NY; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:45 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf6905503fxd.16 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VX9ckjVeiAzBzWQ9P54TVnV9EUny/F6FQ2quGHq9oMg=; b=g0yce2/E5indDFjWhWV3s3BPKV+Czu3Zzg1eSry3Q19cLEuQMs/jXy4RTTiirnte0P wIZMHdZLhumsHGNA2gNa1HUfpDHKaAMydyxGq+Ex1LF8Q0+jbRgiFyo+EX45Vla/HBne r9os8pU1hWpuG01sM9a8ei8a+Qu6DhuB1n7ko= Received: by 10.223.156.131 with SMTP id x3mr657834faw.15.1311947728519; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.106.37 with SMTP id v37ls5142169wbo.1.gmail; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.9.205 with SMTP id m13mr132552wbm.1.1311947727388; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.9.205 with SMTP id m13mr132551wbm.1.1311947727363; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com (mail-wy0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si3824022wbo.3.2011.07.29.06.55.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.182; Received: by wyg24 with SMTP id 24so252022wyg.13 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.195.138 with SMTP id ec10mr1921041wbb.87.1311947727116; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.47.135 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:55:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886424.23009.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:55:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300259ca3d1ada04a935a228 --20cf300259ca3d1ada04a935a228 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm sorry. I'm probably just being an ignorant non-philosopher but, well, here goes. Let the Cummerbund (big C) be defined as being that which all dogs desire AND also all dogs AND also the ultimate form of Dog (in the platonic world of forms sense). Now, do we have a lojban gismu for this new idea? If you want to talk about some concept that nobody has ever dreamt of before then just coin a new fu'ivla and spend a few years writing philosophical argle-bargle to describe what this fu'ivla really *means* in the deep philosophical sense. Ok, me being a jerk aside. It sounds like in it's more generic form, you're asking if it's possible to: Describe X as being A AND B but while also specifying that A and B are in reality the same thing and then to take X, A, AND B and refer to them as a single thing. lo kamjorne be fa ABU bei BY be'o noi ri du ra ku'o jo'u ABY jo'u BY Incidentally, is there a better way to refer to abu and by in the general case {lo broda be abu bei by be'o poi }. My first thought was {lo se ke'a} and {lo te ke'a} but it turns out that those are not legal. On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:39 AM, Escape Landsome wrote: > Well, the continuum-based semantics is a part of some linguistics > systems, e.g. Culioli's semantics, but I won't argue about this now. > > The point is that an intrication of two notions *should* be a notion > of its own. Write it A+B if something is both A and B, as in > multiple object-oriented-programming inheritance... > > The Question (with big Q) is both a quest and the specific questions > that embody this specific quest : I admit this is to some point > non-logical, or, as you say, argle-bargle, but philosophy is full of > such argle-bargle, and it benefits it... The Question is somewhat > like the Dao. Do you know the Dao ? I guess you do. Dao is a word > that means "Way", and that suggests a Principle, or a Cause, or an > Order, or a Law, or Means. So, by this same OOP-multiple inheritance > scheme, Dao is the "sum" of all of these notions. If you were right, > a good lojbanist should use a dozen of lojban words tied together to > say "Dao", or perhaps, as I guess, he should create a special new word > to convey the special meaning of it. > > That's the same question with the Question (no pun intended). Either > it is just argle-bargle, and we replace the word "Question" by either > "quest" or "question" or "questioning" in the opus (but then, we miss > the philosophic point which is to convey the idea that all three > things amount to the same existentialist process), either this is *no* > argle-bargle (that is, we admit a notion can cross several other > notions and mix them together), and we need to say "the > quest+question+questioning" each time we want to translate the words > "the Question"... or perhaps, we just say "the shmurf", assuming > shmurf is the neologism created to term "Question". > > -- .esk > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf300259ca3d1ada04a935a228 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry. =A0I'm probably just being an ignorant non-philosopher b= ut, well, here goes.

Let the Cummerbund=A0(big C) be def= ined as being that which all dogs desire AND also all dogs AND also the ult= imate form of Dog (in the platonic world of forms sense). =A0Now, do we hav= e a lojban gismu for this new idea?

If you want to talk about some concept that nobody has = ever dreamt of before then just coin a new fu'ivla and spend a few year= s writing philosophical argle-bargle to describe what this fu'ivla real= ly means=A0in the deep philosophical sense.

Ok, me being a jerk aside. =A0It sounds like in it'= s more generic form, you're asking if it's possible to:
D= escribe X as being A AND B but while also specifying that A and B are in re= ality the same thing and then to take X, A, AND B and refer to them as a si= ngle thing.

lo kamjorne be fa ABU bei BY be'o noi ri du ra ku&#= 39;o jo'u ABY jo'u BY

Incidentally, is the= re a better way to refer to abu and by in the general case {lo broda be abu= bei by be'o poi <want to refer to abu and by here>}. =A0My first= thought was {lo se ke'a} and {lo te ke'a} but it turns out that th= ose are not legal.

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:39 AM, Escape= Landsome <escaa= ape@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the continuum-based semantics is a part of some linguistics
systems, e.g. Culioli's semantics, but I won't argue about this now= .

The point is that an intrication of two notions *should* be a notion
of its own. =A0 Write it A+B if something is both A and B, as in
multiple object-oriented-programming inheritance...

The Question (with big Q) is both a quest and the specific questions
that embody this specific quest : I admit this is to some point
non-logical, or, as you say, argle-bargle, but philosophy is full of
such argle-bargle, and it benefits it... =A0The Question is somewhat
like the Dao. =A0Do you know the Dao ? =A0I guess you do. =A0 Dao is a word=
that means "Way", and that suggests a Principle, or a Cause, or a= n
Order, or a Law, or Means. =A0 So, by this same OOP-multiple inheritance scheme, Dao is the "sum" of all of these notions. =A0 If you were= right,
a good lojbanist should use a dozen of lojban words tied together to
say "Dao", or perhaps, as I guess, he should create a special new= word
to convey the special meaning of it.

That's the same question with the Question (no pun intended). =A0 Eithe= r
it is just argle-bargle, and we replace the word "Question" by ei= ther
"quest" or "question" or "questioning" in the= opus (but then, we miss
the philosophic point which is to convey the idea that all three
things amount to the same existentialist process), either this is *no*
argle-bargle (that is, we admit a notion can cross several other
notions and mix them together), and we need to say "the
quest+question+questioning" each time we want to translate the words "the Question"... =A0or perhaps, we just say "the shmurf&quo= t;, assuming
shmurf is the neologism created to term "Question".

-- .esk

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