From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDz-srxBBoENdRpaA@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 29 07:02:44 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmneA-0000Fk-BC; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:43 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf6922291fxd.16 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lQcB17kfXSZDu7worKBqaMuk7boSGo4vI0RRgLp9tys=; b=eCFGj3OcdD5jzCUpSOvdwJzsDH8iW4uHpf2r8EpX79TF2LfGeUGsD4ywOcoi8+paXH hH9oKewRMnzPhDis6XbiRHAXoU1HoEJUFj54dUJBv7Uuh5LF6Bb4QPW6wdnFTVcL7BNK wuGNy2E7buTEFa3dfRmW8BhpDfKhoM/aLGhaE= Received: by 10.223.26.1 with SMTP id b1mr676221fac.37.1311948147442; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.149.75 with SMTP id s11ls4983193wbv.2.gmail; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.28.158 with SMTP id m30mr150911wbc.4.1311948146406; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.28.158 with SMTP id m30mr150910wbc.4.1311948146371; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si3833858wbo.3.2011.07.29.07.02.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by wyf22 with SMTP id 22so225015wyf.15 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.196 with SMTP id d4mr1914390wbw.102.1311948146190; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.47.135 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:02:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:02:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] groupyness in definitions To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c1f7437a95004a935bbd3 --0016e64c1f7437a95004a935bbd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, sorry. I understood that mistake the instant xorxes mentioned it. I'm always forgetting my {boi}s .u'u I thought he also had a second complaint about my text because I was using lerfu strings as selbri (i.e. lo xy .e lo zy). Which, I've discovered that that's something else that I haven't gotten use= d to. For some reason my brain thinks that {lo broda jo'u lo brode} should b= e completely legal and understandable. For some reason {lo broda jo'u brode} looks strange to me. Like, how would I say {la bab jo'u la mat cu broda} i= f {jo'u} doesn't take a sumti to the left, a sumti to the right, and then joi= n them as a non-logical connective? On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy.xipa" is a single numeric > string, all-X(1) (remember that "paxy." -> "1X" is considered a number, = and > can do all things that numbers do (quantify sumti, etc.)). Since you wan= t > to make this two different "words" you have to end the quantifier part wi= th > a boi, "ro boi xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want to say, = for > example, "xy boi zy darxi" if you mean "X hits Z", and not "xy zy darxi" > ("XZ hits") > > (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reasons unknown to m= e, > but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically > > --gejyspa > > > > On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: > >> Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that xyxipa worked like "broda" >> and could work in tanru and whatnot. Everywhere where selkik was >> using {me} I intended it that way. >> >> And yeah, now that I think of it, I guess I would agree that {lo se >> vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the >> m&ms will certainly have the same color as others in the same bag. >> >> 2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> >> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've sin= ce >> >> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). But at the time, I >> came up >> >> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka >> xyxire}. >> > >> > You have three sumti there: "ro xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a >> > fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo". >> > >> > (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the whole >> > thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I agree >> > that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that.) >> > >> > You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but it's a sumti. >> > >> >> Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if that {drat= a} >> was >> >> really doing what I wanted it to. If we're talking about {ro lo brod= a} >> then >> >> we're saying "all of those things that broda which are within the sco= pe >> of >> >> our discourse". But now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"nes= s >> is >> >> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all of that". >> >> Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa taken as individua= ls >> >> are different from each of (all of the things in the set xyxipa minus >> itself >> >> as individuals) in property xyxire". >> > >> > ro da poi me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o >> xyxire >> > >> > I don't think "vrici" requires such total difference among the x1's >> though. >> > >> > mu'o mi'e xorxes >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e64c1f7437a95004a935bbd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, sorry. =A0I understood that mistake the instant xorxes mentioned it. = =A0I'm always forgetting my {boi}s .u'u

I though= t he also had a second complaint about my text because I was using lerfu st= rings as selbri (i.e. lo xy .e lo zy).

Which, I've discovered that that's something el= se that I haven't gotten used to. =A0For some reason my brain thinks th= at {lo broda jo'u lo brode} should be completely legal and understandab= le. =A0For some reason {lo broda jo'u brode} looks strange to me. =A0Li= ke, how would I say {la bab jo'u la mat cu broda} if {jo'u} doesn&#= 39;t take a sumti to the left, a sumti to the right, and then join them as = a non-logical connective?

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mtur= niansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 It can, but xorxes point' was that "roxy= .xipa" is a single numeric string,=A0all-X(1)=A0 (remember that "= paxy." -> "1X" is considered a number, and can do all thi= ngs that numbers do (quantify sumti, etc.)).=A0 Since you want to make this= two different "words" you have to end the quantifier part with a= boi, "ro boi xy xi pa", the same as you have to do if you want t= o say, for example, "xy boi=A0zy =A0darxi" if you mean "X hi= ts Z", and not "xy zy darxi" ("XZ hits")
=A0
=A0 (Of course, jboski/genrei chokes on "xy xi pa" for reaso= ns unknown to me, but there is nothing wrong with it grammatically
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, for some reason I was thinking= that xyxipa worked like "broda"
and could work in tanru and w= hatnot. =A0Everywhere where selkik was
using {me} I intended it that way.

And yeah, now that I think of it,= I guess I would agree that {lo se
vasru no'u la'oi m&ms cu = vrici lo ka skari} even though some of the
m&ms will certainly have = the same color as others in the same bag.

2011/7/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>> I was thinking about how one would define "vrici"= ; in lojban (I've since
>> looked it up and xorxes has already done this). =A0But at the time= , I came up
>> with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata= xyxipa lo ka xyxire}.
>
> You have three sumti there: "ro= xyxipa", "ro lo drata", "xyxipa" and a
> fourth incomplete one "lo ka xyxire ... mo".
>
>= (Officially "ro xyxipa" is only a number, not a sumti, so the wh= ole
> thing is ungrammatical because of that first part too, but I ag= ree
> that PA and BY should not mix, so I won't take points off for that= .)
>
> You seem to be using "xyxipa" as a selbri, but= it's a sumti.
>
>> Then I thought some more about it an= d started wondering if that {drata} was
>> really doing what I wanted it to. =A0If we're talking about {r= o lo broda} then
>> we're saying "all of those things tha= t broda which are within the scope of
>> our discourse". =A0B= ut now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is=
>> being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all = of that".
>> Is there a way to say "all of the things in= xyxipa taken as individuals
>> are=A0different=A0from each of (al= l of the things in the set xyxipa minus itself
>> as individuals) in property xyxire".
>
> ro da po= i me xyxipa cu frica ro de poi me xyxipa gi'e drata da ku'o xyxire<= br>>
> I don't think "vrici" requires such total dif= ference among the x1's though.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You receiv= ed this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojba= n" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<= br> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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