From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD8yMvxBBoEbr-W3g@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 29 09:49:15 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmqFK-00052s-P5; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:49:15 -0700 Received: by yxj20 with SMTP id 20sf5011337yxj.16 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:49:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=So52NgFR2irZ5UHjb/46Bc7BbYCkPsCNhK2SodOw11w=; b=roh86+swuWO1U3asfUzv2qEri7JRDYAtj92KBW+6cR6nbtHlvikNp378Z9TTpLM016 0BUvDUleFepa0eWXf2nF49532TdWQItmcN6w/Ht4q/M3DmFJawx3XEEZm5aRx7/l3sgO 1+pdvEpQY9SKbUdMbIDtcszVrrSD0+B8cvSPU= Received: by 10.150.75.19 with SMTP id x19mr309278yba.79.1311958140518; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.155.26 with SMTP id h26ls7347024ano.0.gmail; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.206.19 with SMTP id i19mr1995190anq.29.1311958139294; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.206.19 with SMTP id i19mr1995189anq.29.1311958139275; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.222]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u3si138561ybd.1.2011.07.29.09.48.59; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.222 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.222; Received: from [66.94.237.201] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 16:48:58 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.116] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 16:48:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1021.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 16:48:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 947106.58724.bm@omp1021.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 21842 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jul 2011 16:48:58 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 18P1QKoVM1lgw7CrEhFUm4k4jWsTQCGNgWWsXKE4psa6sXj YtP.04A9xhk52HZMj2kJVHWRyZHVCWnsK2_RDTvYZg1D_jhw8WbcaoDWeVBN 2ju_d704jNMOr43p_hxBxQ6Cf7K_RRVZmTn9PY7GZreW2mJCS0tmYd0eznOF G19USmccRyyHrTU2x4PrclEtuioca1GHiy9e.6MYRZqcvfdy4.CG8cjYrpfc 6yZKbrwtULlSGtnfUtv231ZnOJLJjWqv6YKresazB3uFFRk3kKZ9.pP920zW QDlwhSpURYxz3aHA68Nv4WXJAi3pj_lHvhQOrHnBGJnhFZhQ_JXeQjJB741Q zQELFyE85QEVGwZLQYmqBfyHiGVBfs7ExXujxLCSwCr8gtf9SgfKCNweNALU HFI4Setmv.6e_jrnNm3vwR12u2cU6QH9iCRwKnrF2Xyc.pwudYWWEGd8mnlt ZR337iC3hQZEWKQv1T_JZZZ5sTJqhLqD9Xpo1GzSLRg-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:58 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.310352 References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886424.23009.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311949276.34356.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1311958138.18608.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In fact, OOP led me to give up programming altogether, since mydecades of= =20 training in step by step production did not shift over to the new approach.= But=20 I understand the notion of inheritance perfectly well in a normal sense. I= have=20 trouble talking about semantics outside a well-formed context, which this a= ll=20 lacks, but I get the general idea: you want to blend into one meaning struc= ture=20 elements from several others (that is one meaning of AND covered by "in alm= ost=20 any sense"), probably including not only meaning but pragmatic consideratio= ns. =20 No problem -- except that it is hard to pull it off getting exactly the ef= fect=20 you want.. Your point about continuous semantics (not well illustrated by your example= s)=20 seems to be that the margins of concepts are fuzzy and fade into their neig= hbors=20 (not a news item). Your examples show one case of an extreme of this sort = -- if=20 it really is of this sort rather than two independent coinciding expressio= ns --=20 and one minimal one (the only significant differece between advertising and= =20 propaganda is the product peddled). But I am not clear what that has to do= with=20 the central problem. Nothing reminds me of algebraic procedures. Your historical example is a bit backwards. Whatever central notion Laozi = came=20 up with, it was going to be called Dao. During the Hundred Philosophers. e= very=20 school was attempting to explain Dao and they even had some general ideas a= bout=20 what it was, but they differed enormously about the details (even Li and Zh= uang=20 did, not to mention Kung and Mo at other extremes). All the meaning genera= ted=20 in the debates of the fifth and fourth centuries BCE in China were in the w= ord=20 as it was used ordinarily (as far as we can tell from what remains) and=20 different schools dragged out and stressed different bits (and usually made= =20 passing references to the others). In modern English, those who use it at = all=20 mainly mean the Dao of Daodejing (with the side knowledge that it also mean= s=20 "road". And they tend to give it a mystical interpretation, which is sorta= =20 fair, but misses a lot of Li's points, which apply to ordinary folks as wel= l as=20 sages. The usual solution to the word problem (see Laozi above) is to take a word = in=20 the right area and pump new meaning into it by a lot of propaganda. The ea= rly=20 Christians did that with, interestingly, "the Way" (swiped from Stoics and= =20 Cynics, probably). So, pick your word and repack it. ----- Original Message ---- From: Escape Landsome To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, July 29, 2011 9:48:17 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities Be careful, we are not speaking of the logical AND, but the fact that an object inherits from two classes at the same time. Even if you are not an << Escape Landsomist philosopher >> or any other type of illogical prig of the sort, I guess you can understand the logical bases of Object-Oriented Programming, and understand that, if I declare something to be both a Tool and a Toy, I have a Toy+Tool. We should imho keep in mind we are talking not about syntax, nor pure logic, but semantics. The "+" notation I abusively use here does not mean logical AND, nor arithmetic sum, it is a kind of abbreviation for "mixing classes together". And, if some thing was regarded by society as both a Tool and a Toy, we would be right to call it both names, and even perhaps both names at the same time. Don't confuse logic with semantics... --- As my point about continua seems not to have been properly understood (perhaps this is to some extent rather misleading)... let me first give you two examples taken from a natlang : 1=C2=B0) =E6=96=B0=E6=88=BF, x=C4=ABn=E2=80=8Bf=C3=A1ng=E2=80=8B, means bot= h "brand new house" AND "bridal chamber". There's no difficulty in finding a continuum in this : a bridal chamber is somewhat "used for the first time", so that there is a vicinity in semantics. Also, keep in mind that continuum just means semantics are not discrete, it does not imply they are connected or simply connected (I assume it is meaningful to use this rather topological language)... 2=C2=B0) =E5=AE=A3=E4=BC=A0=E7=94=BB, xu=C4=81n=E2=80=8Bchu=C3=A1n=E2=80=8B= hu=C3=A0=E2=80=8B, is both "propaganda poster" AND "advertising hoarding". The continuum is quite clear here too, isn't it ? And why should it not be so ? I DON'T MEAN propaganda AND advertising ARE THE SAME THING, but only that you can draw a continuous line from the former to the latter... Of course, you could argue that =E5=AE=A3=E4=BC=A0=E7=94=BB, xu=C4=81n=E2= =80=8Bchu=C3=A1n=E2=80=8Bhu=C3=A0=E2=80=8B, is just "(psychically imperative) (mediatic piece of information)". This way you have collapsed the two extremities of the continuous semantic line into one single semantic point, that renders the idea of the whole line. But this is not always feasible. Even if it were, some information would be lost in the process, because "(psychically imperative) (mediatic piece of information)" could also be some frenetic tune, which it is not. So you should say "(non musical mediatic piece of information)", or rather, perhaps, "(visually iconic piece of information)". But then, that's not all, some information is still lost, and then you should add some more correction, and so on... So that defining =E5=AE=A3=E4=BC=A0=E7=94=BB, xu=C4=81n=E2=80=8Bchu= =C3=A1n=E2=80=8Bhu=C3=A0 as { BOTH "propaganda poster" AND "advertising hoarding" } is much more true, and even more handy. [These remind us of the algebraic process of factoring and expanding a formula... Don't they ?] You should also keep in mind that for "pragmatic reasons" (indeed, "historical reasons"), it is justified the Chinese use the same term to refer to propaganda and advertising... So, the fact that two different notions are mixed up together, that they are INTRICATED, is useful ! is practical ! is beneficial even to a logic-oriented mind ! It is a way of conveying the historical idea that two "historical events", or two "ideological concepts", or two "philosophical notions", or whatever, share a priviledged relationship, and that it is meaningful to tell it. Suppose I am Lao-zi and I have a deep intuition that something like << the Way things are going on >> is AT THE SAME TIME the Rule they obey, and the Means to achieve enlightenment (or the like), then wouldn't it be a good move to term some mixed notion as "the Way" in order to convey this (Way+Rule+Means) meaning ? So, I will term it =E9=81=93, d=C3=A0o=E2=80=8B, (which is also the Directi= on, and many other things, btw). And it would be great ! But, as a lojbanist, what should I do ? Saying some "sum" as (Direction+Way+Rule+Order+Means) ? Or saying some new word, a neologism just created on-the-spot ? Both solutions seems to me unsatisfactory. The "sum" solution is not that good, for one never knows the precise import of a philosophical notion : it extends much more than its first definition (for instance, in Spinoza's "ETHICS", "infinitely many" is first given some precise definition, but then, long after, it is used in a slightly different acception, AND THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO BE DONE)... Either the creator of the notion lists all of the semantic import of the new term, but thus "kills" its generative creativity by giving it an excessively-precise determination... or the creator just points at SOME of the semantic import, but then, the choice is somewhat *arbitrary*. Creating a neologism is the other solution, but does not seem a too good solution too, because the relationship between the shape of the word and its meaning is somewhat lost, --- at least to some extent. --- So, I don't know what to do... Assuming there is some X which is (Question+Questioning+Quest), how should a lojbanist term it ? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.