From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCbntDxBBoEP118tg@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 07:03:23 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnA8L-0004y4-FC; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:23 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf4814999qwh.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3UjgRM3591fzrGrqgOlOleGSC6zdUjOgPi71uGkg+50=; b=WrzZ+6sbmcqa2YQNEtWrgB3BqyQAUD3STyxiahlkIc1f7IZFPsp/hel68l60dPAsjc ncKwqsy5yzUWMBRpVnU4zJsTm9tq35iYcDrmLprcimrZVcdC+ZTSvQBqKTVbHuo0GsSz 1KHBnKex1aPU7k+e0+GX6F7eu75RBOAltCRx0= Received: by 10.224.33.211 with SMTP id i19mr352632qad.29.1312034587115; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.187.195 with SMTP id cx3ls7167709qab.0.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.194.5 with SMTP id dw5mr2074001qab.5.1312034586422; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.194.5 with SMTP id dw5mr2074000qab.5.1312034586411; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com (mail-vw0-f52.google.com [209.85.212.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz6si3608259qcb.3.2011.07.30.07.03.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.52; Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so5655623vws.39 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.43 with SMTP id r11mr2657609vdf.529.1312034586176; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.115.133 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:03:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886768.32022.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:03:05 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:20 AM, tijlan wrote: > > I consider lifri1 as the theoretical x2 of "fasnu": > > =A0ko'e lifri ko'a <-- ko'a fasnu ko'e > =A0kohe experiences koha <-- koha happens to kohe Do you think an event must necessarily happen TO someone or something, or can it just happen? Even languages like English with obligatory syntactic subjects have expressions like "it's raining", "it was cold", "it's late", and so on where "it" is just a syntactic filler (much like "zi'o"). Do we really need to say that those events happen to someone or something? I think it's a pity that Lojban doesn't have any zero argument gismu because it helps hide the fact that zero argument predicates are perfectly reasonable things to have. And even in a case like "ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i", we can see that as something experienced by ko'e, something experienced by ko'i, even something experienced by ko'a who is also the agent. But if we have those three perspectives available, shouldn't we have a fourth perspective where it is something that just happens? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.