From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDLn9DxBBoE0DRNMA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 07:06:20 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnABC-00056f-0D; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:20 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf6335423gyg.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/EABFx1rySSp13RylXHabRDK0hfYFzmKoPskXPW/N00=; b=q3m5u+QLYRJSDDkQS8tErzHennaMnGNZXT+xny1en3eawBQgZ3Y7Oa6Lax/v/ere0k y8I+IIh6sg8xcwSLI/tsbnPEBJP/KaHSI628vZHXuf2MoBSS6tfRUmunURXL5XjtyYbh w6R9ZKTVSVFW11DKe/LMSdeNomd4DS9BmcUAo= Received: by 10.147.69.28 with SMTP id w28mr328736yak.11.1312034763776; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.151.7 with SMTP id d7ls1482379ano.3.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.72.5 with SMTP id z5mr1853462ank.27.1312034762031; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.72.5 with SMTP id z5mr1853461ank.27.1312034762013; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.212]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id h29si5398961anq.2.2011.07.30.07.06.00; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.212 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.212; Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:06:00 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.103] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:06:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:06:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 689687.27448.bm@omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 85963 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jul 2011 14:06:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Ukg0h_AVM1kxZYezt9KcU_TIKAyq1m1WC67DtHxqTxDi5Bh Q0n5M111CfGsgWIytYucMZBSFn2xj9YtNU33bZc2B5CM3smML.CtmXyL7viG pD5uKoDZd9cho1EKc8hDIr1P18mL59riKFwJ72fjn2ZIEDo0Es7._wPy9FKq 6lzohcdjc.tIEWx4.v3m7VMrCwbLGpQYPS6xgoVdTSJ.BosSENHsGM6zN06K UwXM1.Ai9sv8ufRoE53w8phi2cQPd8b_CSTg.MupQxrefGpv4UuWWT1ztbrK YBs4J2DHYFcBJhUeaxQXlGNs54tDMmybTC7rBvVpwkXMKmOA.HY5BvVTBz4G JUNDF66xa9BLBlZMP4BTeXKnn1YuT_bTtwVTlUvdcyD0R3wBSWcvTy_1gajD zyt2ntsi066Q8WMNQXb8EjY9dz2yfsw6CRyUcdNtwVxnjA_nLs8TmNI6AtSq 9jm7G3dOCW9vK4N4MtQToG_OmYGYmEHuZDQvKy0YArA-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.310352 References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1312034760.68779.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.212 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, I'm not quite sure what a generic abstractor or generic bridi subordinator would do. It seems that each case where subordination of the sort involved here is concerned, only a limited number of types (by the way how do we fill in x2 of 'su'u'?) are possible and each gives a slightly different meaning. What is left for the generic case? I suppose, following xorlo by analogy, that it would, in each case, be the indeterminate middle of all the possible inserts, assuming that makes any sense at all (what is the middle of propositions, events, and properties?). It seems to add obfuscation just where clarity us sought. ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 7:55:31 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities On 28 July 2011 12:34, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > There is a member of NU that already does what you suggest below, namely > su'u What I suggest is that there be a NU for the purely syntactic purpose of subordinating a bridi and not to additionally 'abstract' some semantic element out of that bridi. "su'u" is still such an 'abstractor' as far as the official definition goes; it's not a truly generic bridi subordinator, since a specific type of its 'abstraction' is always implied by the x2. Either "su'u" or "nu" could be made truly generic. I would prefer "nu", for similar reasons that one might wish to have "joi" and not "ju'e" or "jo'u" as the generic connective. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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