From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC1oNDxBBoENPIzfA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 07:08:04 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnACu-00059a-4W; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:08:03 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf6337637gyg.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uOPtyK2/iwU/tEpu6G+hEAmv4udn2h6egQfq0bLEC8c=; b=Zf6ZCZzgaF5jdR7DwNe6Y9SpU2OgbKY8D/D5/g0s4TEZ39oHthuxt4afz+EJHppVh3 waSF6SzVxxBqZF4dQNk7gIU3vMw1/wiLv9yOIMKRf0t0lZixUV3feqBAdM9CBeONeoBp QnXJm5Wjs9SImZr41k//uKICUUw8oQ/Dt1adU= Received: by 10.150.170.9 with SMTP id s9mr449651ybe.0.1312034869883; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.160.20 with SMTP id m20ls9249250ago.0.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.170.198 with SMTP id p46mr687215yhl.47.1312034868903; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.170.198 with SMTP id p46mr687214yhl.47.1312034868896; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.137]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id e62si1784777yhm.1.2011.07.30.07.07.48; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.137 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.137; Received: from [66.94.237.194] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:07:48 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.123] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:07:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 14:07:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 542473.24110.bm@omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 49057 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jul 2011 14:07:48 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: uaKGzxYVM1lwJDuGNVXCUL4mDU3Gg4IkdHzkzgaFhzEhI8j 5KzmroFR2BqM8WlLj9pXmcuMa.7kBdySzUTqpaTvBl44tJCmWEZw9QUsbJmt .d_ojgCQc8.qFyGTF5ohW49IQRqx5TMyOXMDfsPAkfpYWuPzQ.Wrj66JYYb5 coRmGf8XQgpZU0m70xUdQplbNCkJRMJ.N_EeA6vQB0D_X2VRHaeeplt7Y49Q ekotxZfm9YRfC5jOCQ.3Ju3K47FL1PknNpJaUytA3AobQqnMtLiFTf5BSbyO w6Zx5mgA6vhDqNIhTKNYAEy6vT.J8uxiArgYU.vQCy2NowId_J899j4Qvci1 Yzvhjx9h0kaWUUIqxgSEwbjYlvszV9h2HPdmr_Xc3eICouCttGsYhbPL.k4w kG3_qGVPMEHd0OayYx6.esSjeFOAQ224D_j37jESfR03LFGL2vxyFZjNn0Sw jgeDLJgYj7VV52dXoaUafLpNo2iz7_ZQ29hfSgTKdxg-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.310352 References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886768.32022.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1312034868.99717.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes! ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 9:03:05 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:20 AM, tijlan wrote: > > I consider lifri1 as the theoretical x2 of "fasnu": > > ko'e lifri ko'a <-- ko'a fasnu ko'e > kohe experiences koha <-- koha happens to kohe Do you think an event must necessarily happen TO someone or something, or can it just happen? Even languages like English with obligatory syntactic subjects have expressions like "it's raining", "it was cold", "it's late", and so on where "it" is just a syntactic filler (much like "zi'o"). Do we really need to say that those events happen to someone or something? I think it's a pity that Lojban doesn't have any zero argument gismu because it helps hide the fact that zero argument predicates are perfectly reasonable things to have. And even in a case like "ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i", we can see that as something experienced by ko'e, something experienced by ko'i, even something experienced by ko'a who is also the agent. But if we have those three perspectives available, shouldn't we have a fourth perspective where it is something that just happens? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.