From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDiptHxBBoE6lqCwQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 11:54:41 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnEgH-0000ir-4r; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:40 -0700 Received: by ywt32 with SMTP id 32sf1938953ywt.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hioWa91Wr+IlG7cUt3OU85o+KcaEIEnEQuc0Tc4z+jE=; b=SvoU4+HjwAHwYA7jlEm1WFSxyD8XJzYOsfhm6QZw0RXc6+1BMA9div4iKecn9T7cRk WEvibDy5WBGH+YfE158Zskl+Zi7JXicAeYCZz6G3HEDjH70f9YrgS7GQCxst1qTmr8AQ F2i22dC/S//3t3q36qqddxM0H1lxMim9sCI8Y= Received: by 10.100.248.2 with SMTP id v2mr425698anh.9.1312052067013; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.77.5 with SMTP id e5ls3429556ibk.0.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.165.66 with SMTP id j2mr569188icy.85.1312052066301; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.165.66 with SMTP id j2mr569187icy.85.1312052066291; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm23-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm23-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.57]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n12si3287341icr.0.2011.07.30.11.54.26; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.57 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.57; Received: from [98.138.90.51] by nm23.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 18:54:26 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.7] by tm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 18:54:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2011 18:54:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 35206.66380.bm@omp1007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 10500 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2011 18:54:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 8V9YfuUVM1lAzRK5SxmYNltDIhwiJ.Y56.GfUbDb3AIyXpf f8l5BS_tM7LTlS_SpxSCtgBQCZJQ.2EZhJbOSpjMbx0IhnLU8gT6SOQKhUku ccDjapBBaUzsYs77Rk5HSIZptK._drBnskWKIVAubnXi4nPynsnAF1txPTbz vodXxRfLku_t1IIVDt2520XoqJemZc1gA6BZJLDvu6C4CsIfi4i5.dqFIGJS RiJRG21zpKHcbor7jFNBz6O9fRYGhOx70NAJgg4fd1mSzR1_IscBj41a3.3s lSjhO45GL0ooiujXTufa12ZtMNPnS_0WTJKP06eMt3TwDPQv12yZOKVimIKs bf8nNeb2rd3jCQVAMte.1SpGbcik2D6Rd6fm1W2atKQ03ciskRg5C.jK65Pn hgQsEB8ycZw1YuvOu4CO4c42TIP9GKAjGRNJYulxWzktYaQv0vCA- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp119-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2011 11:54:25 -0700 PDT References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312034760.68779.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312043030.89892.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9538480_AHnHjkQAAEGrTjRNJA3cZFtIQnQ Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:02:07 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice point! All I can do is point to the aspect markers as indicative. Of= course there are other tricks: intransitive eating per se is an activity, = transitive eating is a process. For a person whose jaw has been wired shut= for weeks, ordinary eating may be an achievement. And, of course, being a= n eater is a state. But I don't know what the clues are in Lojban. Sent from my iPad On Jul 30, 2011, at 14:27, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 1:23 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: >> But the types of 'nu' remain a problem, >> since so many words have (in English at least and apparently in Lojban) = several >> readings, one at least, in each of two or more of the subtypes. Maybe w= e need >> either to disambiguate these words or provide some other clues when the = nature >> is unclear (there are obvious relations between these types and aspects,= for >> example). >=20 > Let's say, for the sake of argument, that some bridi (say "ko'a > citka") could be taken as describing either an activity or a process, > and that this distinction makes an important difference. We know how > to indicate this distinction when the bridi is used as a subordinate > clause, but how do we make the distinction at the main bridi level? If > I say "ko'a citka", am I describing an activity or a process? And even > in some subordinate cases, if I say "la djan djuno lo du'u ko'a > citka", how can we tell whether what John knows is that a process is > taking place or that an activity is taking place? If I say "lo badna > poi ko'a citka ke'a", is it a banana that is being eaten as an > activity or as a process? It seems to me that if marking the > distinction between event types is important, Lojban marks that > distinction in the wrong place. It should be marked some place where > every bridi could be marked, not only some bridi in some special > syntactic environment. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.