From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDutdHxBBoEkZtpfQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 12:26:51 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnFBQ-0007Bz-8b; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:50 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf5109988qwh.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KRDDmtJpwAqQFav2s93erna3VxIpBkGpFl/R0cs8160=; b=ShQxMVjnlXe8ujqt5DWqzok79aqQnLr0wFMmacvFKtqOoltb/4Ed+N52Q06GBbTLKt 5mhJWrYuk8bj6xrJbIyEkz+Pe/+lUy5/nsk0mnZ7C8NA98Beprd3EcYMZZL+iJAvf7yi lcwgrJS+fE+rTFPvjwZGwopOIx2x05553u94A= Received: by 10.224.203.7 with SMTP id fg7mr383513qab.18.1312053998093; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.201.202 with SMTP id fb10ls9583468qab.2.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.9.144 with SMTP id l16mr2239579qal.26.1312053997576; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.9.144 with SMTP id l16mr2239578qal.26.1312053997567; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z32si4415540qcd.1.2011.07.30.12.26.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by mail-vw0-f49.google.com with SMTP id 8so4359005vws.8 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.72.227 with SMTP id g3mr2911733vdv.328.1312053997347; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.115.133 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312034760.68779.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312043030.89892.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 16:26:37 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 4:02 PM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: > Nice point! =A0All I can do is point to the aspect markers as indicative.= =A0Of course there are other tricks: intransitive eating per se is an acti= vity, transitive eating is a process. Certainly, but if, say, "ko'a ca'o citka" describes an activity, and "ko'a ze'a citka lo sanmi" describes a process, then the natural way to refer to them is "lo nu ko'a ca'o citka" and "lo nu ko'a ze'a citka lo sanmi". Nothing new is gained by using "zu'o" in one case and "pu'u" in the other. And if something new is gained, we have no way of doing it at the main bridi level, or as a du'u, or as a property, or as a relative clause. > =A0For a person whose jaw has been wired shut for weeks, ordinary eating = may be an achievement. I don't think that's what "achievement" means in lexical aspect terms. An achievement is a telic event with no duration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_aspect Nothing to do with the sense of achievement a person may have from accomplishing something they find difficult. >=A0And, of course, being an eater is a state. =A0But I don't know what the= clues are in Lojban. What I'm not sure I understand yet is what we are supposed to gain by indicating which category the event falls under when we describe the event. It's not as if we are adding any information to the description of the event. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.