From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDCwtHxBBoE5VVSyw@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 30 12:53:52 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnFbZ-0003la-5X; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:52 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf12285939fxd.16 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=p2EpRT8WBmAaRkuXGZGxqgGmDafS4pOfBZqgRfs9OK4=; b=6pC+Vr8qo5diWxXZcfFmwz19jTe5mqn/49WRTjnRIAME17licyZSc05Ugnex1ut4t4 ydhkXfyfzMwIQYtpRPE8JVa+nmjiamu8aMzfcrxqFrJwNnbL88dGPKcoI3qrmDNC2wL6 fCFVJdzyIha4lv6epHBEkNV7m+lLCfP09sWMw= Received: by 10.223.158.134 with SMTP id f6mr1968813fax.20.1312055618289; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.149.75 with SMTP id s11ls5395461wbv.2.gmail; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.202.6 with SMTP id fc6mr305111wbb.3.1312055617401; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.202.6 with SMTP id fc6mr305110wbb.3.1312055617376; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c25si5939982wbp.1.2011.07.30.12.53.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so4496167wwe.1 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.203.10 with SMTP id fg10mr4112490wbb.102.1312055617203; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.47.135 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312034760.68779.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1312043030.89892.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:53:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151758b1b0fd2d6804a94ec0db --00151758b1b0fd2d6804a94ec0db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. Could we just instead say things like {mi zgana lo nu'ai do citka keiku no'u lo fasnu} if it's really that important that we specify that thi= s is an event and not a process/state/etc...? 2011/7/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 4:02 PM, John E. Clifford > wrote: > > Nice point! All I can do is point to the aspect markers as indicative. > Of course there are other tricks: intransitive eating per se is an > activity, transitive eating is a process. > > Certainly, but if, say, "ko'a ca'o citka" describes an activity, and > "ko'a ze'a citka lo sanmi" describes a process, then the natural way > to refer to them is "lo nu ko'a ca'o citka" and "lo nu ko'a ze'a citka > lo sanmi". Nothing new is gained by using "zu'o" in one case and > "pu'u" in the other. And if something new is gained, we have no way of > doing it at the main bridi level, or as a du'u, or as a property, or > as a relative clause. > > > For a person whose jaw has been wired shut for weeks, ordinary eating > may be an achievement. > > I don't think that's what "achievement" means in lexical aspect terms. > An achievement is a telic event with no duration. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_aspect > > Nothing to do with the sense of achievement a person may have from > accomplishing something they find difficult. > > > And, of course, being an eater is a state. But I don't know what the > clues are in Lojban. > > What I'm not sure I understand yet is what we are supposed to gain by > indicating which category the event falls under when we describe the > event. It's not as if we are adding any information to the description > of the event. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00151758b1b0fd2d6804a94ec0db Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. =A0Could we just instead say things like {mi zgana lo nu'ai do c= itka keiku no'u lo fasnu} if it's really that important that we spe= cify that this is an event and not a process/state/etc...?

2011/7/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 4:02 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > Nice point! =A0All I can do is point to the aspect markers as indicati= ve. =A0Of course there are other tricks: intransitive eating per se is an a= ctivity, transitive eating is a process.

Certainly, but if, say, "ko'a ca'o citka" describes= an activity, and
"ko'a ze'a citka lo sanmi" describes a process, then the = natural way
to refer to them is "lo nu ko'a ca'o citka" and "lo = nu ko'a ze'a citka
lo sanmi". Nothing new is gained by using "zu'o" in one = case and
"pu'u" in the other. And if something new is gained, we have = no way of
doing it at the main bridi level, or as a du'u, or as a property, or as a relative clause.

> =A0For a person whose jaw has been wired shut for weeks, ordinary eati= ng may be an achievement.

I don't think that's what "achievement" means in le= xical aspect terms.
An achievement is a telic event with no duration.

h= ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_aspect

Nothing to do with the sense of achievement a person may have from
accomplishing something they find difficult.

>=A0And, of course, being an eater is a state. =A0But I don't know w= hat the clues are in Lojban.

What I'm not sure I understand yet is what we are supposed to gai= n by
indicating which category the event falls under when we describe the
event. It's not as if we are adding any information to the description<= br> of the event.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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