From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCCm9XxBBoEgiCHqA@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 31 05:41:52 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnVL3-0008By-3h; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:51 -0700 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf5686648qyk.16 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y7zr/3WQzZF2KF4yPzaCza5VyYEfi1qwd1CfR5dOT9E=; b=gExFAljfMFXKQ3js9h32pLYBl/Kq0Iy72vLCrW5lFKMAZCK8bEpB4opCIvn37xM/N4 oQ97/bNS4ndEB5HsKkJdu+dCPUYCe1qIwiHwCH6frsXjCqafPUjYauVg99PKBX+MxitP Wjwt8ap84YaoOJygs6mBRy3ZRnG0XvsMdcH6Q= Received: by 10.229.90.150 with SMTP id i22mr430168qcm.18.1312116098874; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.89.4 with SMTP id c4ls4829083qam.1.gmail; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.196.66 with SMTP id ef2mr2677417qab.22.1312116098285; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.196.66 with SMTP id ef2mr2677416qab.22.1312116098271; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f51.google.com (mail-qw0-f51.google.com [209.85.216.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z32si5317470qcd.1.2011.07.31.05.41.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.51; Received: by qwf7 with SMTP id 7so3183685qwf.24 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.187.129 with SMTP id cw1mr325897qcb.40.1312116098081; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.28.130 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:41:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886768.32022.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:41:37 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/7/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:20 AM, tijlan wrote: >> >> I consider lifri1 as the theoretical x2 of "fasnu": >> >> =A0ko'e lifri ko'a <-- ko'a fasnu ko'e >> =A0kohe experiences koha <-- koha happens to kohe > > Do you think an event must necessarily happen TO someone or something, > or can it just happen? It can just happen, in which case the hypothetical fasnu2 would still represent a (mereological) part of the event. I would consider the following compatible: lo nu mi viska ta cu fasnu the event "I see that thing" happens lo nu mi viska ta cu fasnu mi the event "I see that thing" happens to me lo nu mi viska ta cu fasnu ta the event "I see that thing" happens to that thing "happens *to*" involves an arbitrary focus. The same with lifri1: mi lifri lo nu mi viska ta I experience the event "I see that thing" ta lifri lo nu mi viska ta that thing experiences the event "I see that thing" > Even languages like English with obligatory syntactic subjects have > expressions like "it's raining", "it was cold", "it's late", and so on > where "it" is just a syntactic filler (much like "zi'o"). Do we really > need to say that those events happen to someone or something? No, we don't. That's why I called my fasnu2 'theoretical'. And lifri1 too is unnecessary, because it can appear inside lifri2 and can be optionally emphasized with "ba'e" etc., if that's the planned purpose of having it as the x1. > I think it's a pity that Lojban doesn't have any zero argument gismu > because it helps hide the fact that zero argument predicates are > perfectly reasonable things to have. > > And even in a case like "ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i", we can see that as > something experienced by ko'e, something experienced by ko'i, even > something experienced by ko'a who is also the agent. But if we have > those three perspectives available, shouldn't we have a fourth > perspective where it is something that just happens? I'd love to have that. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.