From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDE57rwBBoEPeVkWg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 01 22:59:48 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QctF2-0007Lb-FG; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:48 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf5442920fxd.16 for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=s0IaK8/R62JuKvG/KhJzDTP2vPlej2OgIBU+Da/8kqc=; b=Yqipv9msPETo2T4+4Mi4+LJ6E33VRyIlOktfuSqydKdU4NGID5Pq5HliJ9SYCDEGav DNSKyRdWvXVQT6n7FwFllaNT8sENg2uCkEUSAVWZtBxxhpoFnxk73Dt9PX7tZSPzxRAu lBjsLvITUhX6DXilSOPStMTMEDM/D0aYLT49A= Received: by 10.223.160.77 with SMTP id m13mr1096488fax.35.1309586372967; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.38.88 with SMTP id a24ls2318311bke.1.gmail; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.70 with SMTP id n6mr587884bka.16.1309586371522; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.70 with SMTP id n6mr587883bka.16.1309586371495; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f47.google.com (mail-bw0-f47.google.com [209.85.214.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z3si2160399bkb.0.2011.07.01.22.59.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.47; Received: by bwf20 with SMTP id 20so5376197bwf.34 for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.82.199 with SMTP id ad7mr3713683bkc.152.1309586370392; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.73.7 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Jul 2011 22:59:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 01:59:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554db6468f1e804a70fd60e --bcaec554db6468f1e804a70fd60e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That feels like a slippery slope to me, though. {.i do xu pu catra la .robin.} {.i mi na catra ri to tu'a lo dakfu toi} pe'i lojban allows many more of these unsaid loopholes than English, to the point where I'd consider it lying if you pathologically chose a {zo'e}, CA, CAhA, etc. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 06:35:49PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > > So my question is, can an unsaid "zo'e" cause the bridi to be true > > OR false depending on what the context suggests of the zo'e? > > Clearly the kid is being dishonest but is he /lieing/? > > No. zo'e can never change the truth value of the sentence. > > *But*, without specifying CA and CAhA, it can kind of mean whatever > you want. :) > > > It kind of reminds me of arguments I would have with my sister > > that went like "but you said that you would take out the trash if > > I walked the dog. -yeah, but I didn't say when" > > It's exactly like that. It's not false, it just makes you an > asshole. > > -Robin > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec554db6468f1e804a70fd60e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That feels like a slippery slope to me, though.

{.i do x= u pu catra la .robin.}
{.i mi na catra ri to tu'a lo dakfu toi}

pe'i lojban allows many more of these unsaid looph= oles than English, to the point where I'd consider it lying if you=A0pa= thologically=A0chose a {zo'e}, CA, CAhA, etc.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Robin = Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 06:35:49PM -0400, Luke Bergen wro= te:
> So my question is, can an unsaid "zo'e" cause the bridi = to be true
> OR false depending on what the context suggests of the zo'e?
> Clearly the kid is being dishonest but is he /lieing/?

No. =A0zo'e can never change the truth value of the sentence.

*But*, without specifying CA and CAhA, it can kind of mean whatever
you want. =A0:)

> It kind of reminds me of arguments I would have with my sister
> that went like "but you said that you would take out the trash if=
> I walked the dog. -yeah, but I didn't say when"

It's exactly like that. =A0It's not false, it just makes you = an
asshole.

-Robin

--
http://singinst.org/= : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this senten= ce is false"
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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