From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDRytDwBBoE9G8CWw@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 06 02:05:34 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QeO32-0005Wi-Gp; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:34 -0700 Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38sf4695153vxg.16 for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=TTuf4voIB5KDJQNPu5wEr1ClNnCdsbqummM/0M0bX3k=; b=sOnjtunkOC6oduY3DbVIt1Lo9xmCGiGoAyfijDoS5pwxAhgtrN9H+P7mHZnGoSINNm L9PBi/I6swg4J2suqaTY9IJzF7FjaKYuTswOnYlxzqDQGuhhyo2dY6paEsscsIrPj9A7 DRbMPyRSvKGvr8+W3Af7mqpK/liVkjXRGyklY= Received: by 10.220.210.72 with SMTP id gj8mr1393673vcb.29.1309943121226; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.161.199 with SMTP id xu7ls3503039vdb.0.gmail; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.179.8 with SMTP id dc8mr2146463vdc.14.1309943119842; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.179.8 with SMTP id dc8mr2146462vdc.14.1309943119818; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f176.google.com (mail-qy0-f176.google.com [209.85.216.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a10si6666312vdt.0.2011.07.06.02.05.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.176; Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so4760352qyk.0 for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.105.72 with SMTP id s8mr6282284qco.98.1309943118541; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.48.5 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Jul 2011 02:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 10:05:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] da broda, ko'a broda, da bu'a, zo'e co'e From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We often use the combination of "da/de/di" & "broda/brode/brodi/brodo/brodu" when we describe the grammar by way of syntactically indicating but not semantically specifying the sumti & selbri spaces. For example: da broda lo nu brode kei de lo brodi di That is, some of us (including myself) tend to use a pair of "da/..." & "broda/..." to explain the general structure of a particular expression or to suggest how to put together whatever sumti or selbri for a certain form of expression. Some nintadni would then likely get the impression that whatever sumti <-- da whatever selbri <-- broda and perhaps, with the gimmicks of LE-sumtification and ME-selbrification, that me da (is-whatever) = broda lo broda (that which is-whatever) = da That notion might also be informally driven by the appearance that "da" and "broda" share an identical syllable. The whole assumed correspondence between "da" & "broda" wouldn't be correct, however. "da/..." are BOUND VARIABLEs, while "broda/..." are ASSIGNABLE PRO-FORMs", which is an important distinction to make regarding the practice of quantification. Also, there is the selbri-type of bound variables -- "bu'a/bu'e/bu'i" -- and the sumti-type of assignable pro-forms -- "ko'a/ko'e/ko'i/...". That is: "broda" (assignable pro-form) aligns more with "ko'a" (assignable pro-form) than with "da" (bound variable) and "da" (bound variable) aligns more with "bu'a" (bound variable) than with "broda" (assignable pro-form) These alignments may be comparable to that of "zo'e" & "co'e" as well. With that in mind, which of the following combinations would most finely substitute for the oft-used "da broda" in generalizing grammatical structures: ko'a broda da bu'a zo'e co'e mu'o mi'e tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.