From lojban+bncCAAQ1Kak8gQaBEaEnZo@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 15 05:38:58 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QswRS-0005at-N4; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:38:57 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf8811034yxk.16 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:38:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=/boMeAvqdOMETsT71mBCNKON0NpkAPoW7oX6K05MrVY=; b=bNjDWhclIeigCzy+0NlDfE3VWyeytB8gERtrlAPIJeD+bQIOTr6vD5JnQoENy8fn9g jBfMN5yYogrnIMYaqODEIkIMBffW++CIc/yvv9/Wvw1iKfrGvZBMoGgbhCdFr4G1S9v3 TYK3+XZwdo/v8BXjDubUfNN0X2J6q6s0WLIN0= Received: by 10.146.100.5 with SMTP id x5mr547479yab.17.1313411924411; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.246.22 with SMTP id t22ls7521524anh.6.gmail; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.130.18 with SMTP id h18mr3519352ann.37.1313411922655; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.138.5 with SMTP id q5msybn; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.168.193 with SMTP id x1mr2511867icy.10.1313247822349; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.168.193 with SMTP id x1mr2511866icy.10.1313247822338; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10si4034241icv.7.2011.08.13.08.03.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7DF3eZi029616 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:03:40 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1QsFkR-0004Az-Mv for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 17:03:39 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 17:03:39 +0200 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Message-ID: <20110813150339.GR10697@gonzales> References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <1313242205.82409.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1313242205.82409.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: rutni User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Saturday, 2011-08-13 at 06:30 -0700 - John E Clifford : > Wrong, but not controversial. How the parts of lo broda broda is not an = issue. =20 > Consider, lo sruri be le dinju. Its individual parts do not sruri le din= ju=20 > individually, only some more numerous whole within the bigger whole does = (or=20 > maybe only the whole whole). The collective/distributive distinction is= =20 > manifest only in how 'lo etc. broda' is used, not in how its referent is= =20 > constituted, So you mean that the strongest tautology is not {ro lo broda cu broda}, but simply {lo broda cu broda}? So for example, {lo besna} is ambiguous between having brains as referents and having (e.g.) nerves as referents? Worse, if you adopt the axiom that a whole satisfies a property if any subwhole does, the referents could also include rhinoceroses. So with this meaning of {lo}, how would you unambiguously translate "These brains are conscious", without the possibility of being misunderstood as claiming that their component nerves are, nor electric razors? I can only see {ro lo ti besna poi ro ke'a besna cu sanji}. > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Martin Bays > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, August 13, 2011 3:29:34 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses >=20 > * Friday, 2011-08-12 at 23:04 -0600 - Jonathan Jones : >=20 > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > >=20 > > > * Friday, 2011-08-12 at 07:32 -0700 - John E Clifford < > > > kali9putra@yahoo.com>: > > > > > > > Now, then, a brief summary of xorlo: 'lo broda' refers to some broda > > > > (contextually specified) or, equivalently, to a whole composed of > > > > those some broda (a Lesniewskian set -- very different from the usu= al > > > > sets). The expression gives no indication whether these broda are > > > > acting individually or collectively with respect to their > > > > predicate(s), hence the propriety of conjoining an apparently > > > > collective use with an apparently distributive one. To be explicit= ly > > > > collective, one must say 'loi broda'; to be explicitly distributive > > > > say either 'PA lo broda' or 'lu'a lo broda'. The referents of all > > > > these expressions are the same: some brodas or a whole consisting of > > > > those some brodas. They differ only in how these broda (or this > > > > whole) relates to its predicate(s). > > > > > > So in all cases, the referents of {lo/loi broda} are entities which > > > individually broda? > >=20 > > No, just loi. lo is completely non specific. >=20 > I'm not sure what "non specific" means, but... all I'm claiming is that > {ro lo broda cu broda} is a tautology, where {ro lo broda} quantifies > distributively over the referents of {lo broda}. Is this controversial? >=20 > > > This appears to be in contradiction with the BPFK section definition = of > > > loi: > > > > > > loi [PA] broda - lo gunma be lo [PA] broda > > > > > > (under the interpretation I understand you as giving, the individual > > > referents of the left hand side would generally not gunma, while those > > > of the right hand side must) > > > > > > Or am I misinterpreting something? > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----. > > > > From: Martin Bays > > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, August 11, 2011 5:11:34 AM > > > > Subject: [lojban] xorlo and masses > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > These seem to indicate conflicting semantics for handling of masses. > > > > > > > > (I'll use 'mass' in the CLL sense, intended to be synonymous with > > > > 'gunma'/'group'/'collective'/'plurality') > > > > > > > > The first appears to indicate that masses are still first-class > > > > entities, such that e.g. in {lo tadni cu sruri le dinju}, the refer= ents > > > > of {lo tadni} are masses of students, not individual students. In > > > > particular, it is reasonable for that {lo tadni} to have just one > > > > referent. > > > > > > > > The second appears to indicate that sumti can sometimes be 'flagged= ' as > > > > being interpreted collectively - the referents are the same whether= it > > > > is so flagged or not, but if it is so flagged then a bridi involvin= g it > > > > is understood to hold of the mass consisting of the referents, rath= er > > > > than distributively of the referents themselves. > > > > > > > > [...] >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5GkksACgkQULC7OLX7LNZg1ACg6MvXZ/y/MVNckaONVSQd3Erf D3UAn07MACHKXiC6yRAbjAb+uYikPZ6E =tlxN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI--