From lojban+bncCAAQjaek8gQaBOGdBAE@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 15 05:39:55 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QswSN-0005dr-Ls; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:39:54 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf1876792gxk.16 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=qSHm+soT7zMQq19UeIuW9jHmjid6TRenvZ9KuE+YsMY=; b=rybyG9eVeBmpNeLtWjOTd1uv5roCuxwx5SUidN+rMDCY3b4faqx/HH1ROq5ibOEmpv PhPWrjyAvtTC3jqle5MQ7b/H2I4YgoI7OLwfYyJqsSEOyFcH6Tlnj/D4qIqYBlu5EdQ5 OwGAz+9D70lOxvIAxtlE4RrAIkikc5MRpnyUY= Received: by 10.101.166.15 with SMTP id t15mr270955ano.1.1313411981392; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.208.20 with SMTP id k20ls19646639anq.4.gmail; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.105.7 with SMTP id h7mr3801773anm.38.1313411980431; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.138.5 with SMTP id q5msybn; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.190.200 with SMTP id e48mr8988205yhn.8.1313398475720; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.190.200 with SMTP id e48mr8988203yhn.8.1313398475707; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w8si4579623pbi.2.2011.08.15.01.54.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7F8sXFF021926 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:54:34 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1QsswL-0002dV-N4 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:54:33 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:54:33 +0200 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Message-ID: <20110815085433.GA26666@gonzales> References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: kerfa User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Saturday, 2011-08-13 at 19:28 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > My point then was that the following three assertions are inconsistent: > > > > (i) {ro lo broda cu broda} is a tautology > > (ii) {ro loi broda cu broda} is a tautology > > (iii) loi broda =3D=3D lo gunma be lo broda (i.e. have the same referen= ts) > > > > Indeed, we can derive a contradiction with broda set to {na'e gunma}: > > > > ro loi na'e gunma cu na'e gunma =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (by (ii)) > > ro lo gunma be lo na'e gunma cu na'e gunma =A0(by (iii)) > > su'o gunma cu na'e gunma =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(by (i)) >=20 > I tend to agree that (ii) is kind of inconsistent with (iii), but I > don't think you have a proof there. Your third step relies on "lo > gunma be lo na'e gunma" having at least one referent, but I don't > think it does, since there are no such things as non-masses in an > absolute sense. Everything is a mass of at least itself, so there are > no non-masses in the absolute. You can only conclude that "su'o gunma > be da cu na'e gunma be de", but that's no contradiction. You're right. More generally, it seems that consistency of (i)-(iii) depends on whether or not we accept that a group whose constituents individually broda must broda. CLL-masses do have this property, for example. Martin --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5I3skACgkQULC7OLX7LNbchwCgmA816SULf8zISEcMwLBrz/RP GuEAn2Uo1p+y0zzkhNEPD3Jc2GQMO/tk =DNGs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V--