From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDH6ajyBBoERRn1DA@googlegroups.com Tue Aug 16 02:13:56 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QtFib-0005MC-Mc; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:56 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf7044288qwh.16 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i6lLVPJghCuz0A63RotBGsghXVpgoseIb/G338uCijM=; b=0/nvnPWnN8Xp1rzivI5Utapl2ikAw6bRbcmnHKneKOI5XZ4Po8Vmu61WU2X7Q12557 2tpQrFP+tm1kVBMzZ2yHQKWrxXly6JvUDFTiiNVaqC0V+7M84IIvgL69T51Y1fH+lOa6 IxMZMD27y5jGlMGrYA7AvbymlWvw2vIwFcCeI= Received: by 10.229.7.71 with SMTP id c7mr597374qcc.48.1313486023100; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.187.195 with SMTP id cx3ls14798963qab.0.gmail; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.197.72 with SMTP id ej8mr3789887qab.13.1313486022526; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.197.72 with SMTP id ej8mr3789886qab.13.1313486022512; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz6si5743436qcb.3.2011.08.16.02.13.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.172; Received: by qyk34 with SMTP id 34so1240424qyk.10 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.29.9 with SMTP id o9mr3130390qcc.265.1313486022285; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.227.149 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:13:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <1313242205.82409.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110813150339.GR10697@gonzales> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:13:42 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 15 August 2011 23:35, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> Worse, if you adopt the axiom that a whole satisfies a property if any >> subwhole does, the referents could also include rhinoceroses. > > No, it could not. While it is true that a brain is a mass of neurons, > it is not true that a mass of neurons is a brain. A brain generally includes a mass of neurons + other stuff. It isn't just a mass of neurons, so I wouldn't equate the two. Both statements seem false to me. > While it is true that a rhinoceros has a brain, it is not true that a > rhinoceros is a brain. The confusion of a part with a whole is common even in Lojban the logical language. Consider this: mi viska gi'e satre gi'e pensi What exactly does "mi" refer to, such that all the connected bridi mutually hold true for it? Is it a pair of eyes, an arm, a brain, the whole body, or something else? If the whole body rather than particular organs can be said to viska AND satre AND pensi, the same principle would allow us to say A rhinoceros is processing neural inputs and breathing. instead of A rhinoceros' brain is processing neural inputs and its lungs are breathing. Function-wise at least, then, it would seem ok to think that a rhinoceros 'does brain' as much as a brain 'does brain'. And, given that "does X" and "is X" are often interchangeable interpretations of a predicate in Lojban -- zo'e rirni something 'is a parent' something 'does parent' zo'e pensi something 'is a thinker' something 'does thinker' zo'e matra something 'is a motor' something 'does motor' -- we have to consider whether or not that applies to "besna". Depending on that semantic arrangement, we could have the following: lo besna cu besna .ije lo [rhinoceros] cu besna A brain 'does brain'. And a rhinoceros 'does brain'. A brain 'is a brain'. And a rhinoceros 'is a brain'. Should this be not allowed for the concern about the fallacy of composition, then we would have to pay as much critical an attention to expressions with such implications as: mi se kanla .ije lo kanla cu viska .ije mi viska If the eyes are part of me, and if it's the eyes that see things, then to say that *I* see things would be to commit the fallacy in question, unless we recognized some special equation between the parts and the whole. >> So with this meaning of {lo}, how would you unambiguously translate >> "These brains are conscious", without the possibility of being >> misunderstood as claiming that their component nerves are, nor electric >> razors? >> >> I can only see {ro lo ti besna poi ro ke'a besna cu sanji}. > > > {lo besna cu sanji} is the simplest way to put it. I suppose many would agree that {sanji} can predicate a rhinoceros too or other danlu for that matter. We could have the following simultaneous statements: lo besna cu sanji .ije lo danlu cu sanji Would you say this is false, confusing a part with a whole? mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.