From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhDhq6_yBBoEuACMHg@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 17 07:53:34 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QthUp-0006AP-Cd; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:53:33 -0700 Received: by yie36 with SMTP id 36sf1679106yie.16 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:53:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=59mB6S9LO1iA/7FSHbEx0ErVHi6feJWRouInkz2/ZO4=; b=lsE3g0NOJafLkCN/jgFEadzqRV3FtjJOsBlGbPFLzGn+146D+Ow/Ds6A0E+w3q7+VT k5LpgiQXDSQBr09YqxKb7muErhMKtxffyr/4JSmaz7/WK1ouR/LsC5VMl1a0QygvzdNV khinmDnoi69+Ok1aeQULRCuLyhFiqaIZzhmjQ= Received: by 10.147.55.8 with SMTP id h8mr179460yak.28.1313592801267; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.168.35 with SMTP id v35ls3476523ano.3.gmail; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.105.7 with SMTP id h7mr968828anm.38.1313592800335; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.138.5 with SMTP id q5msybn; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.153.8 with SMTP id k8mr999644icw.22.1313589839683; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.153.8 with SMTP id k8mr999643icw.22.1313589839671; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kr11si795377pbb.1.2011.08.17.07.03.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7HE3vmM025231 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:03:58 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1Qtgir-0005De-KN for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:03:57 +0200 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:03:57 +0200 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Message-ID: <20110817140357.GF6674@gonzales> References: <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> <20110814165654.GA14318@gonzales> <20110816125216.GB10697@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: cokcu User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Tuesday, 2011-08-16 at 20:22 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > Or do you want to say that it *doesn't* follow that those neurons > > collectively {besna}, because the semantics of besna are such that only > > individual brains satisfy {besna}? And generally that plural predication > > is reserved for a few special predicates like {sruri}? That might make > > the ambiguities more manageable. >=20 > Yes, that's what I think. Some predicates require collective > predication, some require distributive predication, and some are happy > with both. That's part of the meaning of each predicate. It may be > more a matter of having an affinity for a certain type of predication > rather than an absolute requirement. Perhaps in some context it may > make sense to say that some neurons are a brain. >=20 > >> then I don't see much of a problem in using "lo go'i", i.e. > >> "lo besna", to refer to the same things that "lo so'i nirna" refers > >> to. > > > > But what are the referents of {lo besna}? Brains, or neurons? >=20 > The referent of "lo besna" is always brains, and in addition, whenever > neurons are brains, brains are neurons, so in that case, the referents > of "lo besna" are also neurons. >=20 > > If you > > leave it ambiguous, won't this cause confusion? e.g. how would you > > translate "these brains are conscious" without being misunderstood as > > claiming that each of their constituent neurons are? >=20 > This particular example doesn't seem like it would ever cause > confusion, but in general I suppose you would have to go with > something like "ti noi ro ke'a besna cu sanji" if you need that kind > of precision. The only way to make sure your predicate appplies > distributively is through a quantifier. OK. Given the clarifications above to the effect that plural predication should be limited and fairly rare, I think I can see this working - and generally the ambiguity in allowing collective satisfaction in {lo broda} being acceptable. > > So how do you see collective predication and groups-as-individuals > > interacting? >=20 > I would say predicate-logic-Lojban (whenever quantifiers get involved) > has a preference for groups-as-individuals, while ordinary > conversation Lojban has a preference for collective predication. > Lojban is weird because it doesn't have plural quantifiers, which are > really needed for logically handling collective predication, and it > doesn't have singular variables, other than "da", "de", "di". So it's > a strange mix. Yes. But if we accept the rule discussed below that if G is the group whose set of constituents is equal to set of referents of {ko'a} then the individual G satisfies broda iff {ko'a broda} holds, and accept that such groups are individuals in our universe, then singular quantification would effectively include plural quantification... If for some ko'a it holds that {ko'a sruri le dinju gi'e krixa}, then {da sruri le dinju gi'e krixa} would hold, and things like {ro da poi casnu cu tavla} would make sense. Whether it's actually a good idea to allow such things, I'm not so sure. > >> > A group is a kind of individual, so a possible referent of a sumti-6. > >> > >> Certainly, for example a referent of "lo girzu". > >> > >> > A group has as data a set of individuals - its constituents. > >> > >> OK. > > > > If you agree that this is all the data in a group, then {girzu} is > > maybe not a good word to use... how about {zilgri}, defined to kill the > > x2 and x4 places of {girzu}? >=20 > Why not "gunma"? The difference could be only that zilgri takes a set in x2 rather than a plural. > I didn't mean to say "lo girzu" is the most general kind of group, > just an example of an individual that also happens to be a group. I > could have used "lo bende", or "lo lanzu". I think "lo gunma" should > be the most general case. >=20 > >> >Things "collectively broda" iff the group whose constituents are > >> >those things brodas. > >> > >> I'm not sure this will always hold. Do we need it for something? > > > > Elegance? >=20 > OK, I can't think of any serious objection. Similarly - although as noted above, admitting such groups does have some serious consequences. > Even things like "lo ci prenu cu pa mei" can be read collectively (as > in "lo ci prenu cu pa mei lo bende"). What are you getting at here, sorry? Martin --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5Lyk0ACgkQULC7OLX7LNbMQgCfY7Z+gXnpF4YcmGFfz1stQXKG 6fUAoOcEdn2uhp7EnDd0YLovglKDiwYx =c4Hp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N--