From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCbsa_yBBoEmlFV7A@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 17 08:05:12 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qthg5-0006kX-Ea; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:05:12 -0700 Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15sf1685047gyc.16 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zAmKy3/kxFzMGDqu+lf5o9QODTvMOfTdWsNIwTF7YGw=; b=YJTws8VXe92qmTI6FWJOGRr9e95rFD16VIBA++ffk7ptzzgkfI5Hd6UIITl7lx+hi8 c9Ny4naQJ98FSyt7iq8fcitjfq083y0K+fBJleDJxlSidefrwnce+NeKH3ZDe2wM+S6K wi6UY+5QLKZw0ob8eUg1hXzM+nJkV3M1R8774= Received: by 10.147.59.4 with SMTP id m4mr186011yak.11.1313593499177; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.204.19 with SMTP id g19ls3494681anq.5.gmail; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.153.195 with SMTP id f43mr2700778yhk.9.1313593496361; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.153.195 with SMTP id f43mr2700776yhk.9.1313593496349; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.94]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n28si861251yhm.5.2011.08.17.08.04.55; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.94 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.94; Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 15:04:55 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.103] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 15:04:55 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 15:04:55 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 77611.15081.bm@omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 62114 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Aug 2011 15:04:54 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: bg20regVM1nxD_mADdv1hiu.b9zQ1qB95AnOzw5crRbFs3y id4x2pdl5exnv2bWIzjm8j8dBoQ3lQPTREwad.lesFzU8T45rg4dgQ5hzeTo TYhjPG6PrsGb9Y2V_yqxO66zGI7D3JqGgatdgDkVx.E6Xy4jhGUfbfQf5XsN sfpnsY6lCSSjUWiTov65o9D6XE2AimzlWfkgA87HrYb9KsbgWzcmQiEIOgrD C69I2Y.DcNokUMA40jMrIuaGNyUk0_qcNYlFTjiaMuMBqPibbg00B3oiRsYN g9stGLKhLlRAs6FCBk2LL7yOtppGs8qZ6EdmJG1woBfn5tFBndISOIHJFJUv jKSjNwTCcFrsTVVAA1F57Mx3ohOFdd3P9PpLWqLEY5rnV3NBedGti8dvn80Q IOd.gPrTnPcFYQ2HMppK6qCB4_MPRu9IHaalsYozizdNNUxzROj.e1XiW4oY 7tjghUHEzItJoAucqwShLm7lh704gr0xIZQj1GpY_W2r1VhBpwtV8sOJ30Ux x88Yk7qG3edwfDnA256p6 Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:54 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <1313511086.45473.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110817114634.GE6674@gonzales> Message-ID: <1313593494.36002.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:04:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20110817114634.GE6674@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.94 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If by plural predication (which seems an odd term, but no worse than usual in Logjam) you mean that terms may have multiple referents (that reference is a relation, not a function) and quantified variables may have several simultaneous instantiations, then xorlo has (finally, a couple of years ago) plural predication. This is a change from the long history of Logjam, where we had (officially, but we behaved as though it wasn't there) singular predication with C-sets doing the work of pluralities. Now, it turns out that the logic of plural reference (a better term, if we are talking about the same thing) is exactly the same as that for L-sets (which were around all the time but we never had the insight to use them), so some few of us too highly indoctrinated logicians tend to continue to use the L-set language or something equivalent to it, even when we know we are just talking about things.So, the answer is (i), but some still talk as though the answer is (iii), not that it makes any difference in practice. ----- Original Message ---- From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, August 17, 2011 6:46:34 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses * Tuesday, 2011-08-16 at 09:11 -0700 - John E Clifford : > [snip useful analysis] > > Now, can we get back to the issue, whatever it was? Or has it been > resolved by careful sorting out? My original question, which I'm afraid did develop into a tangled mess of confusion though I had specifically hoped it wouldn't, was in short whether (i) post-xorlo Lojban has plural predication, or (ii) whether it just emulates plural predication by using groups-as-individuals, or (iii) both. I wasn't expecting (iii) to be the answer, but it seems it is. So yes, basically resolved - my thanks for your involvement in which - modulo details of precisely how plural predication works, and how it interacts with groups-as-individuals. Martin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.