From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDEi7HyBBoEXa2hjA@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 17 15:50:58 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qtowp-0002aL-5U; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:57 -0700 Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6sf2375789ywa.16 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fIoqdP4reZf/RwtsHu6blI/eWdFEydEEOgoxPZNQ5aI=; b=HbQF4O/CR+e/SGHnUnNjP1maf6nZ5rvhSkuvao9GPL8Q698nkq1S8IDT6IS22enlel 2dCyPM/JGnEEQ/PjsuYomc/hqXVWv6fRmF9PrdECJAJP6sP+rwXf58fexRNQ7f0JqeYy fh2RtoFtRriGXx+oh6GUF7frZF9sxrfJ1fqCc= Received: by 10.236.143.73 with SMTP id k49mr1347yhj.27.1313621444893; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.164.21 with SMTP id r21ls5477615ano.1.gmail; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.133.5 with SMTP id k5mr34194ann.7.1313621443165; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.133.5 with SMTP id k5mr34193ann.7.1313621443146; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w9si1712455anp.0.2011.08.17.15.50.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by mail-vw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 17so1319174vws.32 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.22.162 with SMTP id e2mr5701vdf.299.1313621442949; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.170 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:50:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110817140357.GF6674@gonzales> References: <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> <20110814165654.GA14318@gonzales> <20110816125216.GB10697@gonzales> <20110817140357.GF6674@gonzales> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:50:42 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > OK. Given the clarifications above to the effect that plural predication > should be limited and fairly rare, I think I can see this working - and > generally the ambiguity in allowing collective satisfaction in {lo > broda} being acceptable. I'm not sure I agree that collective predication is rare. For predicates that respond to English nouns, yes, it should be rare, but for predicates that respond to verbs/adjectives, I think it should be fairly common. Now in the case of "lo broda", "broda" is likely to be a nounish type of predicate, so I do agree that for "lo broda", the typical case will be distributive satisfaction of "broda". But for the main selbri of a bridi, the typical case will be a verb/adjective type of predicate, and for those I think collective predication is relatively common. > But if we accept the rule discussed below that if G is the group whose > set of constituents is equal to set of referents of {ko'a} then the > individual G satisfies broda iff {ko'a broda} holds, "if {ko'a broda} holds collectively", right? > and accept that > such groups are individuals in our universe, then singular > quantification would effectively include plural quantification... You may be able to say everything with singular quantification, but it takes more effort. Say "ro'oi" is the plural universal quantifier. Then with plural quantification you can say: ro'oi da poi prenu zo'u da su'o roi nonkansa "For every person/people X, X was/were alone at least once". With singular quantification only: ro da poi su'o de poi prenu zo'u ge de cmima da gi no di poi na prenu zo'u di cmima da zo'u da su'o roi nonkansa "For every X such that for some person x, x is a member of X and for no non-person y, y is a member of X, X was alone at least once." I'm not sure that "every group of people" can be said more concisely with singular predication only. (Admittedly the plural quantification case is still missing the indication that "prenu" is to be taken distributively and "nonkansa" is to be taken collectively, which you don't need in the singular quantification case because there there is no distinction between distributive and collective, since variables are always singular.) >> Even things like "lo ci prenu cu pa mei" can be read collectively (as >> in "lo ci prenu cu pa mei lo bende"). > > What are you getting at here, sorry? I don't remember, but "lo ci prenu cu pa mei lo bende" has two readings, depending on whether the x1 of "pa mei" is read distributively or collectively: The three people are one team each, or the three people are one team together. The collective reading is the natural one, since "PA mei" has strong affinity for a collective reading of its x1. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.