From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCB27byBBoE2BDAog@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 18 17:25:51 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QuCuB-0007YH-Mv; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:50 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf3781547yxk.16 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=uey/BGNZSLFfa+qSTp52fQNGOur2BspAWXnJgx4sI5c=; b=w3vMWvG134hy2SsBhGmrXrT8nvrVJ1X92px/j2hmSDC55usL646tipKlcLZxkiJEOd F9PPPoU6vF59gpbXS4cf7opeDAfUbVdCgESu4rtE4P2GDP5bcl85hHfadTCXDNQ9YRw4 D5HJ9tGW3IaebpdMTM7j7F/HvBfbwtFnM+kc4= Received: by 10.101.138.13 with SMTP id q13mr256409ann.22.1313713537288; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.246.22 with SMTP id t22ls10099082anh.6.gmail; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.191.136 with SMTP id g8mr1780791yhn.4.1313713535595; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.191.136 with SMTP id g8mr1780790yhn.4.1313713535580; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si7873716pbi.2.2011.08.18.17.25.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7J0PXWc000949 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2011 00:25:34 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1QuCtx-0004kU-BH for lojban@googlegroups.com; Fri, 19 Aug 2011 02:25:33 +0200 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 02:25:33 +0200 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Message-ID: <20110819002533.GG6674@gonzales> References: <1313511086.45473.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110817114634.GE6674@gonzales> <1313593494.36002.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7lMq7vMTJT4tNk0a" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1313593494.36002.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: cokcu User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --7lMq7vMTJT4tNk0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Wednesday, 2011-08-17 at 08:04 -0700 - John E Clifford : > If by plural predication (which seems an odd term, but no worse than usua= l in=20 > Logjam (not my invention!) > ) you mean that terms may have multiple referents (that reference is a=20 > relation, not a function) Yes, and correspondingly that unary predicates are interpreted as elements of the power set of the power set of the universe, rather than just of the power set of the universe. > and quantified variables may have several simultaneous instantiations, > then xorlo has (finally, a couple of years ago) plural predication. > This is a change from the long history of Logjam, where we had > (officially, but we behaved as though it wasn't there) singular > predication with C-sets doing the work of pluralities. What's a C-set? > Now, it turns out that the logic of plural reference (a better term, > if we are talking about the same thing) is exactly the same as that > for L-sets (which were around all the time but we never had the > insight to use them), so some few of us too highly indoctrinated > logicians tend to continue to use the L-set language or something > equivalent to it, even when we know we are just talking about > things.So, the answer is (i), but some still talk as though the answer > is (iii), not that it makes any difference in practice. =46rom this and your other mails, I am understanding that want to base Lojban on Lesniewskian mereology. I'm hazy on exactly what this would mean, but allow me to guess. Our universe consists of Wholes, and is partially ordered by the "part of" relation. All the things we would usually consider as individuals in our universe are Wholes. In addition, we have mereological sums, i.e. supremums with respect to the "parthood" partial order, of arbitrary sets of Wholes. The interpretation of an ordinary sumti is a Whole; selbri are interpreted as relations on our universe of Wholes. Presumably {me} is interpreted as the parthood relation.=20 A unary predicate P is 'distributive' iff=20 \forall x,y. ( ( x Part y /\ P(y) ) --> P(x) ). To handle quantification, I suppose it is necessary to assume that every whole is the sum of atoms - quantification is then over those atoms. (So now our universe is really just the power set of the set of atoms, with parthood being inclusion... but I'll continue with the mereological terminology anyway) Now if I understand you correctly, you want there to be no other form of collectivisation. So I suppose we would have to have {se gunma} =3D=3D {me}? {zilgri} could correspond to the sup operation. This all seems quite reasonable. Is my summary accurate? One thing which doesn't fit: you say=20 > In my xorlo, terms and quantifiers all assume plurality, > with singularity as a limit case. - does this mean that you want {ro da} to be a plural quantifier rather than the singular quantifier (i.e. quantifying over atoms) it would be in the above account? Does this mean you don't want to assume we're working in an atomic Boolean algebra? If not, how to deal with {re da}? Martin > ----- Original Message ---- From: Martin Bays To: > lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, August 17, 2011 6:46:34 AM Subject: > Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses >=20 > * Tuesday, 2011-08-16 at 09:11 -0700 - John E Clifford > : >=20 > > [snip useful analysis] > > > > Now, can we get back to the issue, whatever it was? Or has it been > > resolved by careful sorting out? >=20 > My original question, which I'm afraid did develop into a tangled mess > of confusion though I had specifically hoped it wouldn't, was in short > whether (i) post-xorlo Lojban has plural predication, or (ii) whether > it just emulates plural predication by using groups-as-individuals, or > (iii) both. I wasn't expecting (iii) to be the answer, but it seems it > is. >=20 > So yes, basically resolved - my thanks for your involvement in which > - modulo details of precisely how plural predication works, and how it > interacts with groups-as-individuals. >=20 > Martin >=20 > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to > lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this > group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --7lMq7vMTJT4tNk0a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5NrX0ACgkQULC7OLX7LNbq7ACdEZHo7OWMWVEPIllLxSPSW1Hh C88AoOE0NAgvLyxWnO3uUUjdYwyYFXb5 =V2o6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7lMq7vMTJT4tNk0a--