From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRD74LfyBBoEqUXK1Q@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 18 22:11:38 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QuHMl-00019y-0w; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:38 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf3577838fxd.16 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8VF2Kprm9cRFkU9vwp05whbHv8bo9NKeadKPOS9VuGg=; b=0dS8JibwStxbTYxJQryEDL5GZM9kbGTCy95sXXoAx7mjJq09iiAaC7s0xPGBx3iBZM EK4Wl1Kl6V7r9YSIRpQL8WO57meCpnT8oxhqiP6OdXrBDZyB61ZBbVeKJX1kQ75P8sAT Eim3HTtRMWrj4XIQqZzIsot7qJCCxHwCob55U= Received: by 10.223.58.139 with SMTP id g11mr95787fah.5.1313730683884; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.39.211 with SMTP id h19ls2949890bke.2.gmail; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.150.197 with SMTP id z5mr40804bkv.3.1313730682324; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.150.197 with SMTP id z5mr40803bkv.3.1313730682291; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t20si1000480fab.2.2011.08.18.22.11.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.44; Received: by fxe6 with SMTP id 6so2902677fxe.17 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.59.208 with SMTP id m16mr2276936fah.47.1313730682102; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.86.7 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:11:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 01:11:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] da broda, ko'a broda, da bu'a, zo'e co'e To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747b6caa3240d04aad4c2f0 --00151747b6caa3240d04aad4c2f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But he's saying it IS broken. I go with {ko'a broda}, but mostly because I've never used {bu'a}. stevo On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:05 AM, tijlan wrote: > >> We often use the combination of "da/de/di" & >> "broda/brode/brodi/brodo/brodu" when we describe the grammar by way of >> syntactically indicating but not semantically specifying the sumti & >> selbri spaces. For example: >> >> da broda lo nu brode kei de lo brodi di >> >> That is, some of us (including myself) tend to use a pair of "da/..." >> & "broda/..." to explain the general structure of a particular >> expression or to suggest how to put together whatever sumti or selbri >> for a certain form of expression. >> >> Some nintadni would then likely get the impression that >> >> whatever sumti <-- da >> whatever selbri <-- broda >> >> and perhaps, with the gimmicks of LE-sumtification and ME-selbrification, >> that >> >> me da (is-whatever) = broda >> lo broda (that which is-whatever) = da >> >> That notion might also be informally driven by the appearance that >> "da" and "broda" share an identical syllable. >> >> The whole assumed correspondence between "da" & "broda" wouldn't be >> correct, however. "da/..." are BOUND VARIABLEs, while "broda/..." are >> ASSIGNABLE PRO-FORMs", which is an important distinction to make >> regarding the practice of quantification. Also, there is the >> selbri-type of bound variables -- "bu'a/bu'e/bu'i" -- and the >> sumti-type of assignable pro-forms -- "ko'a/ko'e/ko'i/...". That is: >> >> "broda" (assignable pro-form) aligns more with "ko'a" (assignable >> pro-form) than with "da" (bound variable) >> >> and >> >> "da" (bound variable) aligns more with "bu'a" (bound variable) than >> with "broda" (assignable pro-form) >> >> These alignments may be comparable to that of "zo'e" & "co'e" as well. >> >> With that in mind, which of the following combinations would most >> finely substitute for the oft-used "da broda" in generalizing >> grammatical structures: >> >> ko'a broda >> da bu'a >> zo'e co'e >> >> >> mu'o mi'e tijlan >> > > da broda > > If it ain't broke, don't fix it. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00151747b6caa3240d04aad4c2f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But he's saying it IS broken.
=A0
I go with {ko'a broda}, but mostly because I've never used {bu= 'a}.
=A0
stevo

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Jonathan Jones <= span dir=3D"ltr"><eyeonus@gmail.com= > wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:05 AM, tijlan = <jbotijlan@gmai= l.com> wrote:
We often use the combination of = "da/de/di" &
"broda/brode/brodi/brodo/brodu" whe= n we describe the grammar by way of
syntactically indicating but not semantically specifying the sumti &selbri spaces. For example:

=A0da broda lo nu brode kei de lo brodi= di

That is, some of us (including myself) tend to use a pair of &qu= ot;da/..."
& "broda/..." to explain the general structure of a particula= r
expression or to suggest how to put together whatever sumti or selbri<= br>for a certain form of expression.

Some nintadni would then likely= get the impression that

=A0whatever sumti <-- da
=A0whatever selbri <-- broda

a= nd perhaps, with the gimmicks of LE-sumtification and ME-selbrification, th= at

=A0me da (is-whatever) =3D broda
=A0lo broda (that which is-wh= atever) =3D da

That notion might also be informally driven by the appearance that
&= quot;da" and "broda" share an identical syllable.

The= whole assumed correspondence between "da" & "broda"= ; wouldn't be
correct, however. "da/..." are BOUND VARIABLEs, while "broda= /..." are
ASSIGNABLE PRO-FORMs", which is an important distinc= tion to make
regarding the practice of quantification. Also, there is th= e
selbri-type of bound variables -- "bu'a/bu'e/bu'i" --= and the
sumti-type of assignable pro-forms -- "ko'a/ko'e/k= o'i/...". That is:

=A0"broda" (assignable pro-for= m) aligns more with "ko'a" (assignable
pro-form) than with "da" (bound variable)

and

=A0&q= uot;da" (bound variable) aligns more with "bu'a" (bound = variable) than
with "broda" (assignable pro-form)

These= alignments may be comparable to that of "zo'e" & "c= o'e" as well.

With that in mind, which of the following combinations would most
fi= nely substitute for the oft-used "da broda" in generalizing
gr= ammatical structures:

=A0ko'a broda
=A0da bu'a
=A0zo&#= 39;e co'e


mu'o mi'e tijlan

da broda

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= ;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )=20


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