From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhC7ocDyBBoEkqYoJQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 20 12:53:47 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qurbx-0002xM-Kd; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:45 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf6068550yxk.16 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key:x-pgp-keyid:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YC3p72GcRa4zxUAmFznjaKinss8C0NTRlZvlvpKLq64=; b=sROVNH7Wv3xcE6U0lO8Bq/bXHePz9/jgZVSEn770kN1Jppf05gFPY40RP/MxSOS0+S SzwPDoNmIZJCKLEkZ2HqiD8WReY0EfARGKVVT7P+WOoNs0HCt/N6s8HLIaIds00MpEiZ mhGSDGlIK9xa98GGr0T1VnbL3cLguTQrh6HT8= Received: by 10.91.218.18 with SMTP id v18mr184398agq.42.1313870011575; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.73.132 with SMTP id q4ls3171462ibj.0.gmail; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.156.138 with SMTP id z10mr1394623icw.3.1313870010605; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.156.138 with SMTP id z10mr1394622icw.3.1313870010591; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ll18si10147849pbb.0.2011.08.20.12.53.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from sdf.org (mbays@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7KJrU1k002062 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:53:30 GMT Received: (from mbays@localhost) by sdf.org (8.14.4/8.12.8/Submit) id p7KJrUCL017162 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:53:30 GMT Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:53:30 +0000 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Message-ID: <20110820195330.GB19624@SDF.ORG> References: <1313511086.45473.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110817114634.GE6674@gonzales> <1313593494.36002.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110819002533.GG6674@gonzales> <20110819100840.GA27065@SDF.ORG> <20110820105209.GD25668@SDF.ORG> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Saturday, 2011-08-20 at 11:39 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > One issue with this approach, though (and maybe this is what you > > meant, actually?) is that quantification only makes sense when we have > > an idea of what atoms are relevant. So in {lo broda ro ri brode}, {ri} > > would have to carry as information not only what Whole {lo > > broda} refers to, but also that quantification of it is to be taken > > with respect to broda-atoms. >=20 > What I meant was that it is "brode", not "ri", that needs to carry > that information. How would that work, sorry? Having it in the sumti seems coherent, and I'm starting to think it might even be usable (and barely diverge from current usage and prescription). > > That's conceptually slightly ugly, and I don't know how intuitive it > > would be. > > > > (Example of use: in the context of people carrying tables, > > {re lo bevri be su'o jubme cu ci mei .i pa ra verba} > > would mean that two of the tables are being carried by threesomes, and > > one of the tables is being carried by a group which consists entirely > > of children. >=20 > I'm not sure I see that that follows. "ra" should have the same > referents as "lo bevri be su'o jubme". The natural distribution of > "verba" is over people, so I would interpret "pa ra verba" as saying > that one of the carriers of tables is a child, with no information as > to whether the child is in one of the two threesomes. But that's only > assuming the most natural distribution of "verba". > > You are assuming that from the context the natural distribution > shifts from prenu to "cimei [be lo prenu]", and further that the > referents of "ra" are not the same referents of "lo bevri be su'o > jubme" but those of "lo bevri be su'o jubme be'o poi ci mei [be lo > prenu]". I wasn't, although I see that the english translation I gave could give that impression. Let me give in painful detail the meaning I meant to give the lojban, and how I derive it: The interpretation of {lo bevri be su'o jubme} has data (B,P) where B is the Whole of the people carrying the tables, and P is the predicate P(x) :=3D=3D (x carries >=3D1 table) ; the P is recorded to indicate that when the sumti is quantified, the quantification is over those P-atoms which are parts of B. By definition of B and P, a P-atom below B is precisely the Whole which carries one of the tables. So the P-atoms below B are in bijection with the tables.=20 Now {ri} also has data (B,P). So {pa ri verba} means that exactly one of the P-atoms below B satisfies {verba}. Since {verba} is x1-distributive wrt people, this claims that all of the people who are part of this P-atom are children - i.e. that all of the carriers of the corresponding table are children. There may or may not be three of them. > > Assuming {bevri} is distributive in x2 with respect to tables, {lo > > prenu cu bevri lo jubme} would accurately describe the situation, and > > {ro lo prenu cu bevri lo jubme} would be false.) >=20 > Right, but it is not a general property of "bevri" that it is > distributive in x2 with respect to tables. In some other context we > may need that it not fully distribute with respect to tables. Maybe so (although I can't actually think of an example). > What I was getting at is that it is not generally part of the > meaning of a predicate how it distributes in any of its arguments > with respect to other predicates, although in a lot of cases there > is an obvious natural choice. Well... technically it is part of the meaning, if we accept that the meaning of a predicate includes the information as to when it is true of given arguments. > (We could try to define predicates in such a way that how they > distribute with respect to other predicates is always determined, > but I don't think it would work from a practical usage point of > view.) Agreed, although hints like "usually distributive over foos" could be helpful when indicating meaning. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.