From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDJw8DyBBoEOGf6SQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 20 14:06:32 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QuskN-0007ux-3p; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:31 -0700 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33sf2869533qyk.16 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=a9j6RrUt9zkF2FQ0FEFsdgqLMCIM0orz8piqTj1z98o=; b=vhY/q45uSeQ4yYiyE99EQGAGJ68a/kFPwI33vd2e9yzSRekRxQ/OiBQgk8cULclEB2 G0GjFyUPI1PjSzwwWwpq41D+BSwBb+xnoPFBa1xrF2IKXvORjBej7H0d5iZdLJ1deV7O 6I1hRv+XJtG/RcbYKT1mS4vgCoTx4aKGZyM5A= Received: by 10.224.202.132 with SMTP id fe4mr106246qab.56.1313874377137; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.207.1 with SMTP id fw1ls9110576qab.4.gmail; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.206.129 with SMTP id fu1mr535075qab.10.1313874376057; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.206.129 with SMTP id fu1mr535074qab.10.1313874376041; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f177.google.com ([209.85.220.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i2si1024550qcv.1.2011.08.20.14.06.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.177; Received: by mail-vx0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 2so4115432vxj.8 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.23.235 with SMTP id p11mr762889vdf.232.1313874375887; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.170 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110820195330.GB19624@SDF.ORG> References: <1313511086.45473.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110817114634.GE6674@gonzales> <1313593494.36002.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110819002533.GG6674@gonzales> <20110819100840.GA27065@SDF.ORG> <20110820105209.GD25668@SDF.ORG> <20110820195330.GB19624@SDF.ORG> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 18:06:15 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > * Saturday, 2011-08-20 at 11:39 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Martin Bays wrote: >> > So in {lo broda ro ri brode}, {ri} >> > would have to carry as information not only what Whole {lo >> > broda} refers to, but also that quantification of it is to be taken >> > with respect to broda-atoms. >> >> What I meant was that it is "brode", not "ri", that needs to carry >> that information. > > How would that work, sorry? > > Having it in the sumti seems coherent, and I'm starting to think it > might even be usable (and barely diverge from current usage and > prescription). (Do you want "lo broda zo'u ro ri brode"? Otherwise "ro ri" goes in the x2 of "brode".) I think we should be able to say "lo broda zo'u ro ri poi brodi cu brode" where "brodi" dismembers the broda-atoms into brodi-atoms. To be more concrete: lo bevri be lo jubme zo'u re ri cu verba "The carriers of table(s): two of them are children." should not imply that two whole teams of table carriers are children, but is more likely just saying that two people among the table carriers are children.. This is basically saying that "lo broda" is "zo'e noi ke'a broda", and not "zo'e noi ro ke'a broda". >> > {re lo bevri be su'o jubme cu ci mei .i pa ra verba} > > Let me give in painful detail the meaning I meant to give the lojban, > and how I derive it: > > The interpretation of {lo bevri be su'o jubme} has data (B,P) where B > is the Whole of the people carrying the tables, and P is the predicate > =A0P(x) :=3D=3D (x carries >=3D1 table) ; > the P is recorded to indicate that when the sumti is quantified, the > quantification is over those P-atoms which are parts of B. > > By definition of B and P, a P-atom below B is precisely the Whole > which carries one of the tables. So the P-atoms below B are in > bijection with the tables. (Not really very relevant to your point, but why a bijection? Some of the Wholes could carry more than one table, and perhaps some of the tables were carried more than once, and maybe some tables were not carried at all.) > Now {ri} also has data (B,P). So {pa ri verba} means that exactly one > of the P-atoms below B satisfies {verba}. Since {verba} is > x1-distributive wrt people, this claims that all of the people who are > part of this P-atom are children - i.e. that all of the carriers of > the corresponding table are children. There may or may not be three of > them. I don't like the idea of pronouns carrying more info than B. The reason is that some Wholes are more natural than others, and having to keep track of unnatural Wholes is... well, unnatural. >> Right, but it is not a general property of "bevri" that it is >> distributive in x2 with respect to tables. In some other context we >> may need that it not fully distribute with respect to tables. > > Maybe so (although I can't actually think of an example). Suppose two people carry two (smallish) tables in the same action. It makes no more sense to say that the carrying is distributed over the tables than to say it is distributed over the people. >> What I was getting at is that it is not generally part of the >> meaning of a predicate how it distributes in any of its arguments >> with respect to other predicates, although in a lot of cases there >> is an obvious natural choice. > > Well... technically it is part of the meaning, if we accept that the > meaning of a predicate includes the information as to when it is true > of given arguments. Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that the same word (say "bevri") can be used to represent (slightly) different predicates in different contexts, the slight difference being in this case its distributiveness type over its arguments. >> (We could try to define predicates in such a way that how they >> distribute with respect to other predicates is always determined, >> but I don't think it would work from a practical usage point of >> view.) > > Agreed, although hints like "usually distributive over foos" could be > helpful when indicating meaning. I suppose that's the kind of information that is meant to be given by the "(mass)" comments in the gi'uste. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. 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