From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDBgsXyBBoEhenaHQ@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 21 10:33:04 2011
Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDBgsXyBBoEhenaHQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QvBtJ-0008Jl-S8; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:33:04 -0700
Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6sf7538229ywa.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=dz0z2kgvpZeOU4CK8uO2QyEr10+i8oOyJhWH6ywYyx4=;
        b=4eO90K2vlrv9FYYnqd45M19LDhvOveK3FuIGRMyDR7O+eCZzblB68ywLD+x0Y6PpzE
         0Pn4Xl3RThuZiw7SFEHD5OI1k9XGGmHWPK0pn1GlhgWFdlrCyPOAcHXGwI7BNLvCjSwy
         xpNc2xBEYVjE/7TS8D/W36+rO+i3ZSmJ6Ki94=
Received: by 10.101.209.31 with SMTP id l31mr289732anq.6.1313947969232;
        Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.101.204.19 with SMTP id g19ls7750407anq.5.gmail; Sun, 21 Aug
 2011 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.100.19.14 with SMTP id 14mr1741068ans.31.1313947967454;
        Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.100.19.14 with SMTP id 14mr1741067ans.31.1313947967428;
        Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.66])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id v10si8250416anq.2.2011.08.21.10.32.47;
        Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.66;
Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 17:32:47 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.102] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 17:32:47 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 17:32:47 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 55898.89713.bm@omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 21246 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Aug 2011 17:32:47 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: dLatpLUVM1n.ZZzshBH21sD2UwQ1GlPbHVAw7s8EIu5Z3Zo
 kTJBnOlDhFndv3StDvDvL9yWANGuDuCTL0cXEL8YYFEgHwnhVwTdz8i.Tk6J
 gQAcNyU4xIA_bKf67SjzD_AWLyUTcWemIjeF3TbltzEmzX4_B_Wehcd1S1oR
 CdkxSymLyyfFaXHtpxmUUzMApt.TWYSPHCvlcOXRb2Jq1.dcKFbnHl_V3UD1
 J6H1Abb7p3HS.inhAG6gIHTB8VIl1wvaiuUvIr0vvANBWGdRqhwU5cZR04oM
 jkencTOkSxjjFjTKwYSzh41DvCbWbRBiF4DE5ZNviuouHeXq_zGFYXlFfSct
 yliRonYZ8U0Ng9Hoch_r01Rg7v3z.mxnLrzRTV3i.L_UULWVD1zhc.yfl.QA
 4Ap7He89me5u6MttPSS8lxRk6HDDMSdkuh2lEbSf81cDJmsk424LWlcN2qTq
 ObmbzAtUKi4zokhmnJraQOjzwvqDRfc4J9AFLd8N.5JFu1qWlIHm0WXqpiyi
 nok3f3PDsKc13wc6yyiZvw7qmtKAn0g--
Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:46 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619
References: <78489.7571.1313935676782.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlo5>
Message-ID: <1313947966.11480.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:32:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] First-order logic learning sources
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <78489.7571.1313935676782.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlo5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2092979683-1313947966=:11480"

--0-2092979683-1313947966=:11480
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, I think I could send you copies of either (or both) my books, but I don't 
dislike you so I'll pass.  Most logic books are focused on proofs and devote 
very little time to the syntax of logic, which would be the part of interest to 
Lobanists.  The most genral piece I know of (in easiloy available things) is a 
section near the end of Kalish, Montage, Mar: Logic, Techniques of Formal 
Reasoning.  That gives a general framework for just about everything that can be 
done within the formalism.  But the syntax of formal logic is incredibly simple 
compared to that of even Lojban, since there is (almost) no room for compound 
subjects or other arguments or predicates modifying predicates or any of the 
other things that generate, in Lojban. most of the complexities (but allow it to 
function as a language which can actually express something). It is possible to 
do pure first order (or higher) syntax in Lojban, but the result will almost 
always seem stilted and unnatural.





________________________________
From: Muhammad Nael <muhammad.nael@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, August 21, 2011 9:07:56 AM
Subject: [lojban] First-order logic learning sources

I've looked into it, but I can't find any good, publicly available, introductory 
learning material for First-Order Logic... I believe it would be easier for me 
to digest Lojban if I see its backbone first... This may be contradictory to the 
customs, but it's how I do it ;)
I haven't been to high-school yet; so I know about different logical and formal 
systems as much as I know about the back of my hand (translates to 'nothing' in 
my book)

PS. Is there any way to edit posts here?

Regards,
MN

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VgwFiUdz8c8J.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--0-2092979683-1313947966=:11480
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:12pt">Well, I think I could send you copies of either (or both) my b=
ooks, but I don't dislike you so I'll pass.&nbsp; Most logic books are focu=
sed on proofs and devote very little time to the syntax of logic, which wou=
ld be the part of interest to Lobanists.&nbsp; The most genral piece I know=
 of (in easiloy available things) is a section near the end of Kalish, Mont=
age, Mar: Logic, Techniques of Formal Reasoning.&nbsp; That gives a general=
 framework for just about everything that can be done within the formalism.=
&nbsp; But the syntax of formal logic is incredibly simple compared to that=
 of even Lojban, since there is (almost) no room for compound subjects or o=
ther arguments or predicates modifying predicates or any of the other thing=
s that generate, in Lojban. most of the complexities (but allow it to
 function as a language which can actually express something). It is possib=
le to do pure first order (or higher) syntax in Lojban, but the result will=
 almost always seem stilted and unnatural.<br><div><br></div><div style=3D"=
font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br><di=
v style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12=
pt"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-=
weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Muhammad Nael &lt;muhammad.nael@gmail.com&g=
t;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegro=
ups.com<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sun, Augu=
st 21, 2011 9:07:56 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</s=
pan></b> [lojban] First-order logic learning sources<br></font><br>
I've looked into it, but I can't find any <i>good</i>, publicly available, =
introductory learning material for First-Order Logic... I believe it would =
be easier for me to digest Lojban if I see its backbone first... This may b=
e contradictory to the customs, but it's how I do it ;)<br>I haven't been t=
o high-school yet; so I know about different logical and formal systems as =
much as I know about the back of my hand (translates to 'nothing' in my boo=
k)<br><br>PS. Is there <i>any</i> way to edit posts here?<br><br>Regards,<b=
r>MN<br>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VgwFiUdz8c8J">https://=
groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VgwFiUdz8c8J</a>.<br>=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br><span>

For more options, visit this group at <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://g=
roups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.</span><br>


</div></div>



</div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--0-2092979683-1313947966=:11480--