From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDi78XyBBoEaD48-g@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 21 14:26:09 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QvFWt-0003r3-Rw; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:26:08 -0700 Received: by vxh2 with SMTP id 2sf5366453vxh.16 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c8rbkeXxnksSA6HjzcbHEcRlBVkbq/BO30PACvBnG3U=; b=RbF+WnyEGjfLMWfrPFUQF1FYQxBqpRglCg1QDFImf4/bTwnqeCVKoiWd1YfBVIgL09 PYmhvwrWTZQsK+D3yAwMfnEhh2N4v/lLgr2+Jd/UHArrIs1T2XBCifX2VhE6Z1dk4BFU Y+pJkOfO6PxpqoIxlaCDV9cGhnN+DkF9nLnU8= Received: by 10.220.142.83 with SMTP id p19mr250566vcu.40.1313961954081; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.73.194 with SMTP id n2ls7827452vdv.2.gmail; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.70.19 with SMTP id i19mr723810vdu.14.1313961953539; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.70.19 with SMTP id i19mr723809vdu.14.1313961953531; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com (mail-qy0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh5si13383513vdc.3.2011.08.21.14.25.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.169; Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27so1254472qyk.0 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.5.194 with SMTP id 2mr858437qcw.215.1313961953259; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.73.203 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1313949251.24200.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <1313242205.82409.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110813150339.GR10697@gonzales> <1313949251.24200.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 22:25:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21 August 2011 18:54, John E Clifford wrote: > Secondly, descriptions refer to things in the domain of discourse, which = need > not be mereologically closed either up or down, and usually isn't (when I= talk > about rhinoceroses, I have never yet even thought about their brains, tho= ugh I > would, if asked, have admitted they were se besna -- still not talking ab= out > their brains.) I agree. > So much of what you say is off topic, indeed, irrelevant to > Lojban, as far as I can see. =A0Part-whole has nothing to do with predica= tion > (unless you include collective/distributive in it, where it does not stri= ctly > belong). "the part-whole relation is not essential to the selbri's meaning", said I on 19 Aug. >=A0Semantics is not biology or physics or ,,,, and syntax even less so. "be not too serious about whether the physical reality of a "rhino" is such that it must be more than a "brain"", 19 Aug. > I'm with Jones on this. The word "mass", which you don't use all that of= ten, > admittedly, is totally useless for these conversations, so that is out. "mass", "group", "collection"... whichever appropriate word. I could ask this: lo xanto cu gunma lo besna joi ma ... which would be a response to Jonathan's presupposition that a rhino must be more than a brain. I say that such a presupposition is *not* necessary, that "lo xanto cu besna" can be ok. > Nor, contrary to your last remark, does what yu say have any obvious ling= uiatic > relation to 'lo besna' and 'lo xanto'. I discussed the non-linguistic aspects of brains etc. in response to Jonathan's non-linguistic assumptions (e.g. what a brain is a mass or part of). I tried to point out that there are fundamental fuzziness and arbitrariness in what we perceive as physical boundaries and wholes, if that's what he had meant by "mass". I then tried to suggest that the physical reality of anything is not essential to the way we handle objects in languages. That's my linguistic point. For me, what an object is a "mass" or part of, if ever, is ultimately determined by the logic that manifests over a discourse. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.