From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCI_sXyBBoEsDbjww@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 21 14:56:40 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QvG0Q-0004W1-3p; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:39 -0700 Received: by vwe42 with SMTP id 42sf4983236vwe.16 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cd3HOFnxj06My+19PHUxcvFE38BqXS63T3mZA3GXs84=; b=sPnLgLMXnLLItcWtiCXPvYje7SP8YLaPYIP78Sf/5lai3IaVYrIE4EiyJMPNz4V13Q oDXpy+1cmG47opRzikZw3zi4WrtjMG44INS5FHtUEeM3AZF4Rh7b8wf1V1i1/acuaeVO mh4hWatSb4SMTm0iCpzF5y96arcm/ZOxw9VY4= Received: by 10.220.115.139 with SMTP id i11mr250049vcq.26.1313963784500; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.22.136 with SMTP id n8ls9739473vcb.3.gmail; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.175.100 with SMTP id bz4mr1038685vdc.12.1313963783776; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.175.100 with SMTP id bz4mr1038684vdc.12.1313963783768; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm28-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm28-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.149]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id l6si2110955vdt.0.2011.08.21.14.56.23; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.149 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.213.149; Received: from [98.139.212.146] by nm28.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.229] by tm3.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1038.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 322451.8673.bm@omp1038.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27253 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: Ey6_4KoVM1leSyoXHxGEUu4Lp8BI.z5WvSVEouR3TOdVldg FzhrLPElDVAhYOVQN5MTOg1mzNfi_BqFMmkVKthpjft3FVtKUHekiJlxEQl4 PPQzuk7K61afpcZz4RVYs.2CA8d8Re08k0NPGYvohuJKLWV8mvsf7c.lls0F z53yMyRc2fVOGCLnAatZ.JBzoUkCXN_rDyaCbsWaIXDkEHHtjP5jus7OLEK. ZRaW9guNTj1PVuvS04lHmPPSPvxFm3APDD5I5IUYKCLY5_6z.a_0r1_vR_DK soh_RzvcLR.gzTBQ_YLi82XnD5tMyIVlb.tyYYABhBpKd.Mr1s0yFFDf47bL 1QohdnnI6U_b0hCDWuk5d6zEzEpLptqehAMwdlRxGdQQ5H3kTzCknrosu.FZ GDkTZ67.nSGAo6Q7gOkPLtpKH.dQShAgcrGzWCG_Eee1p0q_LZiggn27TOqI z6CRUb9dnjHU391E4a9Eupq9Euw3N7OxIsXqlG0PsyQ-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp112-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Aug 2011 14:56:22 -0700 PDT References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <1313242205.82409.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110813150339.GR10697@gonzales> <1313949251.24200.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <36B7ACD6-4524-4F6B-BA15-D8160C055386@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9740272_AHbHjkQAALwITlF35gK60QAODbQ Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:05:29 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am glad to see we agree so much, raising the question of what it is that = is relevant and we disagree about. Well, I am not suggesting that part-who= le is even relevant to a word's meaning, not merely not essential. Whether= the meaning presupposes a plurality in some place is part of the meaning b= ut nothing to do d, per se, with part-whole. I admit I don't understand th= e next remark. The trouble with all those words for collection is just tha= t, the ay are words for collections, which sound like something more / othe= r than the things collected. The all each carry some semantic and emotiona= l freight. I can imagine a conversation in which "An elephant is a brain p= lus what?" made sense (though maybe not with 'joi'), but not one where "An = elephant is a brain." did. They're just the wrong sorts of things. Your l= ast remark is more promising, since I take it to say (as I had trouble tak= ing a lot of what went before) that things are fuzzy and words are vague an= d so there is an ultimate and inevitable indeterminacy in what we say. But = that is a triviality, which hardly justifies the verbiage. And not quite i= s it the case that what is a whatever comes out in the discourse;it may but= we may announce at the beginning, and define it's atoms: lo ci gerku, for = instance. Sent from my iPad On Aug 21, 2011, at 17:25, tijlan wrote: > On 21 August 2011 18:54, John E Clifford wrote: >> Secondly, descriptions refer to things in the domain of discourse, which= need >> not be mereologically closed either up or down, and usually isn't (when = I talk >> about rhinoceroses, I have never yet even thought about their brains, th= ough I >> would, if asked, have admitted they were se besna -- still not talking a= bout >> their brains.) >=20 > I agree. >=20 >=20 >> So much of what you say is off topic, indeed, irrelevant to >> Lojban, as far as I can see. Part-whole has nothing to do with predicat= ion >> (unless you include collective/distributive in it, where it does not str= ictly >> belong). >=20 > "the part-whole relation is not essential to the selbri's meaning", > said I on 19 Aug. >=20 >=20 >> Semantics is not biology or physics or ,,,, and syntax even less so. >=20 > "be not too serious about whether the physical reality of a "rhino" is > such that it must be more than a "brain"", 19 Aug. >=20 >=20 >> I'm with Jones on this. The word "mass", which you don't use all that o= ften, >> admittedly, is totally useless for these conversations, so that is out. >=20 > "mass", "group", "collection"... whichever appropriate word. >=20 > I could ask this: >=20 > lo xanto cu gunma lo besna joi ma >=20 > ... which would be a response to Jonathan's presupposition that a > rhino must be more than a brain. I say that such a presupposition is > *not* necessary, that "lo xanto cu besna" can be ok. >=20 >=20 >> Nor, contrary to your last remark, does what yu say have any obvious lin= guiatic >> relation to 'lo besna' and 'lo xanto'. >=20 > I discussed the non-linguistic aspects of brains etc. in response to > Jonathan's non-linguistic assumptions (e.g. what a brain is a mass or > part of). I tried to point out that there are fundamental fuzziness > and arbitrariness in what we perceive as physical boundaries and > wholes, if that's what he had meant by "mass". I then tried to suggest > that the physical reality of anything is not essential to the way we > handle objects in languages. That's my linguistic point. For me, what > an object is a "mass" or part of, if ever, is ultimately determined by > the logic that manifests over a discourse. >=20 >=20 > mu'o >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.