From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDV3MnyBBoEozPKXA@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 22 07:57:45 2011
Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDV3MnyBBoEozPKXA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QvVwV-0004QG-8X; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:44 -0700
Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf8761536yxk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=k3/gKl/ghIT3k73SRm25rCO4NJRlCqrMXrYh5uZSli8=;
        b=KOhSPtbtOFWcFg/Yklv0/4Rr05x6DOR5t+UGp9LRQn8V99wT8loP3H1OONr9ED25OJ
         CYW3hCBAXiZjyi4wepUSBqz7XNw6Uh4FcLpZHMPqgxdcn5F8f0vA74DaXI+GvyTrsmvU
         krBD6ltxBtkCgZANuiu9Smq/N+dKlgcH9iMWg=
Received: by 10.236.191.38 with SMTP id f26mr1853072yhn.16.1314025045461;
        Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.91.130.14 with SMTP id h14ls21006365agn.6.gmail; Mon, 22 Aug
 2011 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.187.1 with SMTP id x1mr11160368yhm.8.1314025042668;
        Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.187.1 with SMTP id x1mr11160365yhm.8.1314025042650;
        Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.217])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i1si1702451ybe.1.2011.08.22.07.57.22;
        Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.217 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.217;
Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 14:57:22 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.122] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 14:57:22 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 14:57:22 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 278849.44360.bm@omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 15979 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Aug 2011 14:57:22 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: YZbcJPkVM1nznrsSiGdjVTi6mi2IRH2T2KJQ0W2mB7NSIb_
 wRMbP4fNsL9VHTCUsuLw9LynHRNkf4ORqs5HYBFvq3yXGTAcqShUhWbxw_wi
 NWNUz_Dll6.CW6tP6FkgcBcV3X_Rj7lR3GMfdINpC6bc1YXbSU.LNZdqnx6X
 MnXukHSOBTFH3GGkc3OV32uRp9OCP5EQxw3xiJsS72PtHKZCw9MGcfdfI9TG
 LEfHrYB.EIzaVrPfekxMnqtzUFTlDWfu6LHobJ5MMtxsCZIe0RrxM1caB2Hq
 LBJtZE77Jx1uBDYaH6NLO2F5vFXBafxlq47QRJ6De7AYQX1._lRIeym_UUiN
 0YkTDxDI_WjR4FnWeyR0mI4QrVB5OfHUvNbRhzdNgmWn2341HnoNmX7eWgGp
 6teytprmcKzfYgK2lXiXgZReb57uaOdFH9ZsLI1Q.UKRbyRy814L9q3l.GBs
 v.GliopVrtSjzV.nPNo00BTgU1jH1JV_YIaK9h8iyBAnXNef1lrReLawJS0R
 6Ct99.EW6WNHtm0_8E2xxNZzK9Synwg--
Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:21 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619
References: <78489.7571.1313935676782.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlo5> <CAPtN2UsL0Bw2BWcCQCOBhXP6J0+WuQ9Roo6+sBo=9zbAMzsyPg@mail.gmail.com> <10374760.415.1314022929219.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqic12>
Message-ID: <1314025041.3273.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] First-order logic learning sources
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <10374760.415.1314022929219.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqic12>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.217
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1397256071-1314025041=:3273"

--0-1397256071-1314025041=:3273
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

No, I meant that I am a terrible writer.  But, for various reasons, my texts do 
spend a lot of time on syntax.
FOL (and SOL) are only good (if at all) for the purely descriptive (truth 
functional) part of language.  So it underlies the non-cmavo part of Lojban 
(with a few exceptions: some quantifiers and connectives, for example).  It can 
be enriched in a variety of ways, which cover yet more cmavo (modalities and 
tenses and such like) but still fit the general patterns (but are even less like 
Lojban).  This leaves a large number of cmavo which fit into FOL not at all 
(emotions, conversation grease, and the like).
The syntax per se of FLO is incredibly simple, though it takes a while to come 
to see it in operation easily.  It is, by and large, assumed in most of the 
books on the list (at least as far as I looked, about the first 150).  The list 
is very interesting to me, since it has the latest (well, a lot more recent) 
infor on philosophical logic (i.e., really very non-standard stuff).   





________________________________
From: Muhammad Nael <muhammad.nael@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, August 22, 2011 9:22:09 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] First-order logic learning sources

Well, I think I could send you copies of either (or both) my books, but I don't 
dislike you so I'll pass.
I'm taking this to mean that the books you have are barely acceptable....
"......."
I've read about formal, first-order and second-order logics on  Wikipedia; 
merely scratching the surface, but 'formal' looked too  simplistic to be a 
ground for a complete language.
Seeing as there isn't any good free online courses, I'll ask for  professional 
books... You have up to 40$, more if the book is really  good and more or less 
universal.
---------------------
[davidjenyv]
I'll have a look at that site, although I still need recommendations for what 
books to look for.

Regards

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/p881k6b2GZ0J.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--0-1397256071-1314025041=:3273
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:12pt"><div>No, I meant that I am a terrible writer.&nbsp; But, for v=
arious reasons, my texts do spend a lot of time on syntax.<br>FOL (and SOL)=
 are only good (if at all) for the purely descriptive (truth functional) pa=
rt of language.&nbsp; So it underlies the non-cmavo part of Lojban (with a =
few exceptions: some quantifiers and connectives, for example).&nbsp; It ca=
n be enriched in a variety of ways, which cover yet more cmavo (modalities =
and tenses and such like) but still fit the general patterns (but are even =
less like Lojban).&nbsp; This leaves a large number of cmavo which fit into=
 FOL not at all (emotions, conversation grease, and the like).<br>The synta=
x per se of FLO is incredibly simple, though it takes a while to come to se=
e it in operation easily.&nbsp; It is, by and large, assumed in most of
 the books on the list (at least as far as I looked, about the first 150).&=
nbsp; The list is very interesting to me, since it has the latest (well, a =
lot more recent) infor on philosophical logic (i.e., really very non-standa=
rd stuff). &nbsp; <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new =
york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br><div style=3D"font-family:times new =
roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D=
"2"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> M=
uhammad Nael &lt;muhammad.nael@gmail.com&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com<br><b><span style=3D"font=
-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, August 22, 2011 9:22:09 AM<br><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] First-order=
 logic learning sources<br></font><br><i>Well, I think I could send you cop=
ies of either (or both) my books, but I don't dislike you so I'll pass.<br>
</i>I'm taking this to mean that the books you have are barely acceptable..=
..<br>
"......."<br>
I've read about formal, first-order and second-order logics on=20
Wikipedia; merely scratching the surface, but 'formal' looked too=20
simplistic to be a ground for a complete language.<br>
Seeing as there isn't any good free online courses, I'll ask for=20
professional books... You have up to 40$, more if the book is really=20
good and more or less universal.<br>
---------------------<br>[davidjenyv]<br>I'll have a look at that site, alt=
hough I still need recommendations for what books to look for.<br><br>
Regards<br>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/p881k6b2GZ0J">https://=
groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/p881k6b2GZ0J</a>.<br>=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br><span>

For more options, visit this group at <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://g=
roups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.</span><br>


</div></div>



</div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--0-1397256071-1314025041=:3273--