From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCPgtDyBBoEkKk8Jg@googlegroups.com Tue Aug 23 12:35:59 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QvwlN-0006pr-Nt; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:58 -0700 Received: by wwf4 with SMTP id 4sf569048wwf.16 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qDIhfLOo01sb91RvlmTuSsjVFzDMva7VdkQm1D9YSxg=; b=pIKhfWmasMrEjJ5ws2bxMr3GUcI8SLe0o6Wchqovifq3m/gcCv/YFFb8r9sL1Fa3rD GIAkNZg0fmAc0whr5+nGPfI/tueARb44ULy85GVL45MOvSzwwjqRWBggEJPJPfuPcHGm qEBbszK2GkoFFy54B02Th5HRPt8r/GiN9sAz4= Received: by 10.216.70.71 with SMTP id o49mr1387386wed.2.1314128143708; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.25.202 with SMTP id a10ls3274449wbc.0.gmail; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.39.18 with SMTP id d18mr57859wbe.0.1314128137567; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.39.18 with SMTP id d18mr57858wbe.0.1314128137538; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m17si411888wbo.1.2011.08.23.12.35.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by mail-wy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 13so410564wyh.30 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.80.14 with SMTP id j14mr4316387wee.9.1314128137184; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.163.14 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:35:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f423b2ce664e04ab314cfd --001485f423b2ce664e04ab314cfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 cool. Excellent explanation. So the distinction between {vi} and {vu} then is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the speaker feels about that distance. e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} tells us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree while if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speaker feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree. Is that a reasonable understanding? So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? I perpetually have trouble when talking about TAG-like constructs. {broda ba lo nu brode} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the event of brode" {broda vi lo brode} = "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } the brode". What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. For specifying origin we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? Maybe as is the case with an un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now. i.e. {broda baku} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ...... speaker's present/location" {broda viku} ?= "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. Clearly genai VI and TAG are entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > > > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such that > {mi > > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short-distance-from] a > > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I read > > [long-distance-from] a tree". > > That's the old standard definition. > > > A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want > {bu'u} > > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence actually > means > > something else (what it means I don't remember any more). > > What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distance > from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." Utter > nonsense, as trees aren't lengths. > > This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient > way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able > to do. No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use > termsets for it. Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally > or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. Because it's so > astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way > those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it > official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa. > > > .ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. How SHOULD I be using > > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about) > > {mi kelci vi lo tricu} > > Old School: I play near a tree. > New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is > tree. (nonsense) > > {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > > Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a > meter. (nonsense) > New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree. > > {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu} > > Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. > (nonsense) > New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much > the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the > distance and origin) > > {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci} > > Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and play. > > {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre} > > Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree. > New School: Termsets? What the mabla is that?! > > .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai > > mu'omi'e la stela selckiku > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001485f423b2ce664e04ab314cfd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cool. =A0Excellent explanation. =A0So the distinction between {vi} and {vu}= then is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the s= peaker feels about that distance. =A0e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo= mitre} tells us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from = the tree while if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that = the speaker feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree.
Is that a reasonable understanding?

So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? =A0I perpetually have trouble w= hen talking about TAG-like constructs.

{broda ba l= o nu brode} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the event of br= ode"
{broda vi lo brode} =3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } t= he brode". =A0What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. =A0For = specifying origin we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? =A0= Maybe as is the case with an un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the spe= akers here and now. =A0
i.e. {broda baku} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ....= .. speaker's present/location"
{broda viku} ?=3D "b= roda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's present/location&q= uot;..... wow... that feels odd. =A0Clearly genai VI and TAG are entirely d= ifferent gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG

On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela = Selckiku <selcki= ku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such th= at {mi
> tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short-distance= -from] a
> tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I r= ead
> [long-distance-from] a tree".

That's the old standard definition.

>=A0A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want= {bu'u}
> and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence actua= lly means
> something else (what it means I don't remember any more).

What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distan= ce
from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." =A0Utter nonsense, as trees aren't lengths.

This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able
to do. =A0No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use
termsets for it. =A0Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally
or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. =A0Because it's so
astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way
those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it
official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa.

>=A0.ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. =A0How SH= OULD I be using
> them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about)
{mi kelci vi lo tricu}

Old School: I play near a tree.
New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is
tree. (nonsense)

{mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre}

Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a
meter. (nonsense)
New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree.

{mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu}

Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. (nonse= nse)
New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much
the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the
distance and origin)

{zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci}

Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and play.<= br>
{mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre}<= br>
Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree.
New School: Termsets? =A0What the mabla is that?!

.ua nai bu'o cu'i dai

mu'omi'e la stela selckiku

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