From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCD8tLyBBoEK7j1eQ@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 24 01:40:49 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qw90v-0002n1-43; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:48 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf1106698qwh.16 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WzncYigIBAA9p7bmGTbW/rEQ5JZUp4yvKr+zuWUCRN8=; b=1SP7kQnAMjkFVLYul4g2tNdhJmwW4cQDQbIheEUlDlDJbKoMxN570azVQKlRKDzgUM 8toxpT96M5YUL15Zxer08Z4UAcoHgpJepUB+SULfXW/S3tPfnnSMv+e8v3nNi7nfkfd2 1USsgwW09thn2sP/Q60G5X+/H2YGhC7Bl3NO4= Received: by 10.224.201.133 with SMTP id fa5mr421696qab.28.1314175235772; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.203.195 with SMTP id fj3ls864736qab.5.gmail; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.205.71 with SMTP id fp7mr3507501qab.4.1314175235272; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.205.71 with SMTP id fp7mr3507500qab.4.1314175235261; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r3si1292136qcz.3.2011.08.24.01.40.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.44; Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so694516qwc.31 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.47.129 with SMTP id n1mr422383qcf.215.1314175235053; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.73.203 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:40:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:40:34 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23 August 2011 20:35, Luke Bergen wrote: > cool. =A0Excellent explanation. =A0So the distinction between {vi} and {v= u} then > is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the speak= er > feels about that distance. =A0e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} t= ells > us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree whi= le > if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speaker > feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree. > Is that a reasonable understanding? > So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? It seems to me that a tag is basically whatever bare cmavo or unit of cmavo that can be replaced by a "fi'o SELBRI". The new school VI would be something like: fi'o cmalu te sepli at small distance The old school VI has been something like: fi'o se jibni se sepli / fi'o jibni near There seems to be little syntactical change. (By the way, could "fi'o cmalu te sepli zo'e" mean "fi'o te jibni zo'e"?) >=A0I perpetually have trouble when talking about TAG-like constructs. > {broda ba lo nu brode} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the eve= nt of brode" > {broda vi lo brode} =3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } the brode= ". > =A0What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. =A0For specifying ori= gin > we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? =A0Maybe as is the case wit= h an > un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now. > i.e. {broda baku} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ...... speak= er's > present/location" > {broda viku} ?=3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's > present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. =A0Clearly genai VI and TAG= are > entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG 'The assumed thing' about each tag doesn't have to be of the same sort apart from being something specific to the speaker (if we really are to take TAG KU as implying not just {zo'e} but {lo steci be mi}, {tu'a mi}, etc.). We can have different me-involving assumptions according to each tag's meaning. With {ba}, it's naturally a temporal point. With the new {vi}, it would naturally be a spatial distance: ba ku =3D fi'o se balvi tu'a mi subsequent to some me-involving temporal point (my present) vi ku =3D fi'o cmalu te sepli tu'a mi at some me-involving small (near-my-location) distance (But TAG KU doesn't always imply the speaker's such frame of reference, does it?) mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.