From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCLitnyBBoE2QTfRQ@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 25 05:50:32 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QwZO8-0006kW-Rr; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:31 -0700 Received: by vxh2 with SMTP id 2sf1320338vxh.16 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R+KJ+QzWWlLmPcacbh8/r5xnNHYemaaj0fcBlsKSboI=; b=sFdNZQTUAdG8hjvwVoolTd9HzELtbOXkfSS5Z/OU3uXfOxEjfR6U/AD6X+fTGPuOWn iS5eXOxzcrwXBj2xd82B6MOWSjopsjyUyqYIJNUhY2kHZk9diwiaI9VmhwbwMoeknNgj VytGnofmTvGT8KoXM5weu/3bunM3BnujvFQ48= Received: by 10.220.202.203 with SMTP id ff11mr993988vcb.23.1314276619946; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.193.130 with SMTP id du2ls1531325vcb.3.canary; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.73.196 with SMTP id n4mr3328357vdv.19.1314276618843; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.73.196 with SMTP id n4mr3328356vdv.19.1314276618834; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com (mail-qy0-f175.google.com [209.85.216.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ch3si833206vdc.2.2011.08.25.05.50.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.175; Received: by mail-qy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 4so3874540qyk.13 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.185.3 with SMTP id i3mr642439wff.399.1314276618591; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.41.230 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:50:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen wro= te: >> >> I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such that= {mi >> tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short-distance-from] = a >> tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I read >> [long-distance-from] a tree". > > That's the old standard definition. > >>=A0A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want {= bu'u} >> and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence actuall= y means >> something else (what it means I don't remember any more). > > What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distance > from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." =A0Utter > nonsense, as trees aren't lengths. > > This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient > way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able > to do. =A0No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use > termsets for it. =A0Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally > or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. =A0Because it's so > astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way > those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it > official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa. > >>=A0.ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. =A0How SHOULD I be = using >> them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about) > > {mi kelci vi lo tricu} > > Old School: I play near a tree. > New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is > tree. (nonsense) Not nonsense in new school. You just have to interpret "tree" as a distance (it could be equal to the standard height of a tree, for example, or where the tip of its shadow lies) > {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > > Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a > meter. (nonsense) > New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree. Old school isn't nonsense. It means a short distance from the meter-long thing. > > {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu} > > Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. (non= sense) > New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much > the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the > distance and origin) > Old School: I am sitting a short distance from a meter-long thing, at a t= ree. > {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci} > > Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and play= . This one I think I would called the Old School nonsense. Are we AT the tree (bu'u) or near it (vi)? > > {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre} > > Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree. > New School: Termsets? =A0What the mabla is that?! > How is it acceptable to say, "I can't be bothered to read the CLL, therefore I should not use that construct"? People like that probably vote (pick your favorite deprecated political party). "Oooh... I don't understand 'klama'. Therefore I'll always use 'cadzu'." Ummm.. just -- No > .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai > > mu'omi'e la stela selckiku > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.