From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC1j9nyBBoEsS6zSw@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 25 06:01:53 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QwZZ8-0006zE-4X; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:53 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf3164101yxk.16 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IpwgRWZLmXTSNNIp/H2eI40iUW5JQtHhWWIf1Mi0Ldw=; b=Sfq+qwjDu84ZzwPwsVnhfdyEm/NwmhavMvVBcqa50UsAoUzUTaUWe6YoZxWeXdBFhq 4FymQEO7DusPFzuO/2Af+02QFT3Hm5/aAkDhsU47tRJXPflAwqHJV4ZpLC3eZh6eru9D PxLguHJ0OkgGu7hjadYPrGvN1EDlBnvoXrzGs= Received: by 10.91.113.7 with SMTP id q7mr1469814agm.15.1314277301148; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.114.166 with SMTP id e38ls185310ibq.7.gmail; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.130.136 with SMTP id v8mr4799633ics.26.1314277300387; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.130.136 with SMTP id v8mr4799632ics.26.1314277300375; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f42.google.com (mail-pz0-f42.google.com [209.85.210.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ll18si2600922pbb.0.2011.08.25.06.01.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.42; Received: by pzk37 with SMTP id 37so2981830pzk.29 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.229.12 with SMTP id b12mr3316172wfh.413.1314277300105; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.41.230 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:01:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > cool. =A0Excellent explanation. =A0So the distinction between {vi} and {v= u} then > is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the speak= er > feels about that distance. =A0e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} t= ells > us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree whi= le > if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speaker > feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree. > Is that a reasonable understanding? Yes, in the new school understanding. Which is why I think new school is *bleep*. If you specify a unit of measure, then your choice of vi/va/vu becomes arbitrary and subjective, and adds not a wit of objectivity to "lo mitre be li pa", but nonetheless, you HAVE to pick one of them (unlike la'u, which is completely objective). So now you have to think "hmmm...is it near? far? How do I feel about it today? How will my listener feel?". On the other hand, if you really WANT to communicate a feeling, rather than a specific number, old or new school just use a selbri tense. > So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? =A0I perpetually have trouble = when > talking about TAG-like constructs. > {broda ba lo nu brode} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the eve= nt of > brode" > {broda vi lo brode} =3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } the brode= ". > =A0What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. =A0For specifying ori= gin > we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? =A0Maybe as is the case wit= h an > un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now. Again, like everything else, this is in the CLL. Read chapter 10. Yes, it's the here and now. As for using VI like TAG, I quote froim the CLL (12.10): "So far, we have seen tenses only just before the selbri, or (equivalently in meaning) floating about the bridi with ``ku''. There is another major use for tenses in Lojban: as sumti tcita, or argument tags" i.e. VI and its friends are subsets of tags. Grammatically, they pretty much work the same way. The major difference is how they are semantically intrepreted when used with "i___bo" where BAI act differnet than tenses. --gejyspa > i.e. {broda baku} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ...... speak= er's > present/location" > {broda viku} ?=3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's > present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. =A0Clearly genai VI and TAG= are > entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku wrot= e: >> >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> > >> > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such th= at >> > {mi >> > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short-distance-from= ] >> > a >> > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I read >> > [long-distance-from] a tree". >> >> That's the old standard definition. >> >> >=A0A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want >> > {bu'u} >> > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence >> > actually means >> > something else (what it means I don't remember any more). >> >> What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distance >> from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." =A0Utter >> nonsense, as trees aren't lengths. >> >> This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient >> way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able >> to do. =A0No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use >> termsets for it. =A0Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally >> or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. =A0Because it's so >> astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way >> those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it >> official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa. >> >> >=A0.ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. =A0How SHOULD I b= e >> > using >> > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about) >> >> {mi kelci vi lo tricu} >> >> Old School: I play near a tree. >> New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is >> tree. (nonsense) >> >> {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} >> >> Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a >> meter. (nonsense) >> New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree. >> >> {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu} >> >> Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. >> (nonsense) >> New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much >> the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the >> distance and origin) >> >> {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci} >> >> Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and pla= y. >> >> {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre} >> >> Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree. >> New School: Termsets? =A0What the mabla is that?! >> >> .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai >> >> mu'omi'e la stela selckiku >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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