From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDwmdnyBBoEDM5CUQ@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 25 06:24:17 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QwZuk-0000N3-89; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:24:16 -0700 Received: by wwf4 with SMTP id 4sf4545150wwf.16 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:24:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zcgYm8gOC8U/8dYmSV92dh1x+nn5eTYUqVwZVvE3png=; b=dmkMygS13Y4tnTPsJNHM9pVm7r0CC5q/rR5uHKqjKt03YUk9EB9rLtVoBLLikGI7iW MSeioFHfhCKYoV5h4s6ezMpKZ3QJknMNMSapoLZO1Xu6QmmwD4AzqRwqwl8YhUOhpcLW 3n4/gwBphV1FD2uKMevfWhQ0UjBsTVhl48hNA= Received: by 10.216.49.73 with SMTP id w51mr2210127web.23.1314278640394; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:24:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.200.140 with SMTP id ew12ls1610851wbb.3.gmail; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.201.131 with SMTP id fa3mr332960wbb.7.1314278639328; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.201.131 with SMTP id fa3mr332959wbb.7.1314278639287; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m17si1036846wbo.1.2011.08.25.06.23.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; Received: by mail-wy0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 36so2211745wyg.40 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.80.14 with SMTP id j14mr6626596wee.9.1314278639119; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.50.193 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:23:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:23:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f423b26bae8a04ab5457a3 --001485f423b26bae8a04ab5457a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Right, but I'm assuming that everything under the "new system" came after the CLL so I'm trying to understand how I should NOW understand vi/va/vu to mean? blech, wasn't this shit supposed to be decided on and set in stone like 15 years ago or something? Also, yes, you're right. I haven't read through the CLL in a good year or two. I need to read through it again to freshen up on technical lojban. Also, did I use {ne'a} appropriately back there? I was trying to find the most generic FAhA so as not to indicate whether it's "to the east of", "beneath", "to the left of" or any other specific direction, but rather just "somewhere around". On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > cool. Excellent explanation. So the distinction between {vi} and {vu} > then > > is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the > speaker > > feels about that distance. e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > tells > > us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree > while > > if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speaker > > feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree. > > Is that a reasonable understanding? > > Yes, in the new school understanding. Which is why I think new > school is *bleep*. If you specify a unit of measure, then your choice > of vi/va/vu becomes arbitrary and subjective, and adds not a wit of > objectivity to "lo mitre be li pa", but nonetheless, you HAVE to pick > one of them (unlike la'u, which is completely objective). So now you > have to think "hmmm...is it near? far? How do I feel about it today? > How will my listener feel?". On the other hand, if you really WANT to > communicate a feeling, rather than a specific number, old or new > school just use a selbri tense. > > > So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? I perpetually have trouble > when > > talking about TAG-like constructs. > > {broda ba lo nu brode} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the event > of > > brode" > > {broda vi lo brode} = "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } the brode". > > What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. For specifying origin > > we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? Maybe as is the case with > an > > un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now. > > Again, like everything else, this is in the CLL. Read chapter 10. > Yes, it's the here and now. As for using VI like TAG, I quote froim > the CLL (12.10): "So far, we have seen tenses only just before the > selbri, or (equivalently in meaning) floating about the bridi with > ``ku''. There is another major use for tenses in Lojban: as sumti > tcita, or argument tags" i.e. VI and its friends are subsets of tags. > Grammatically, they pretty much work the same way. The major > difference is how they are semantically intrepreted when used with > "i___bo" where BAI act differnet than tenses. > > --gejyspa > > i.e. {broda baku} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ...... > speaker's > > present/location" > > {broda viku} ?= "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's > > present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. Clearly genai VI and TAG > are > > entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku > wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such > that > >> > {mi > >> > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read > [short-distance-from] > >> > a > >> > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I read > >> > [long-distance-from] a tree". > >> > >> That's the old standard definition. > >> > >> > A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want > >> > {bu'u} > >> > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence > >> > actually means > >> > something else (what it means I don't remember any more). > >> > >> What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distance > >> from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." Utter > >> nonsense, as trees aren't lengths. > >> > >> This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient > >> way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able > >> to do. No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use > >> termsets for it. Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally > >> or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. Because it's so > >> astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way > >> those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it > >> official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa. > >> > >> > .ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. How SHOULD I be > >> > using > >> > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about) > >> > >> {mi kelci vi lo tricu} > >> > >> Old School: I play near a tree. > >> New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is > >> tree. (nonsense) > >> > >> {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > >> > >> Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a > >> meter. (nonsense) > >> New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree. > >> > >> {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu} > >> > >> Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. > >> (nonsense) > >> New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much > >> the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the > >> distance and origin) > >> > >> {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci} > >> > >> Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and > play. > >> > >> {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre} > >> > >> Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree. > >> New School: Termsets? What the mabla is that?! > >> > >> .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai > >> > >> mu'omi'e la stela selckiku > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001485f423b26bae8a04ab5457a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right, but I'm assuming that everything under the "new system"= ; came after the CLL so I'm trying to understand how I should NOW under= stand vi/va/vu to mean?

blech, wasn't this shit supp= osed to be decided on and set in stone like 15 years ago or something?

Also, yes, you're right. =A0I haven't read thro= ugh the CLL in a good year or two. =A0I need to read through it again to fr= eshen up on technical lojban.

Also, did I use {ne&= #39;a} appropriately back there? =A0I was trying to find the most generic F= AhA so as not to indicate whether it's "to the east of", &quo= t;beneath", "to the left of" or any other specific direction= , but rather just "somewhere around". =A0

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mtur= niansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> cool. =A0Excellent explanation. =A0So the distinction between {vi} and= {vu} then
> is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the sp= eaker
> feels about that distance. =A0e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo m= itre} tells
> us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree = while
> if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speake= r
> feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree.
> Is that a reasonable understanding?

=A0Yes, in the new school understanding. =A0Which is why I think new=
school is *bleep*. =A0If you specify a unit of measure, then your choice of vi/va/vu becomes arbitrary and subjective, and adds not a wit of
objectivity to "lo mitre be li pa", but nonetheless, you HAVE to = pick
one of them (unlike la'u, which is completely objective). =A0So now you=
have to think "hmmm...is it near? =A0far? =A0How do I feel about it to= day?
=A0How will my listener feel?". On the other hand, if you really WANT = to
communicate a feeling, rather than a specific number, old or new
school just use a selbri tense.

> So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? =A0I perpetually have troub= le when
> talking about TAG-like constructs.
> {broda ba lo nu brode} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) }= the event of
> brode"
> {broda vi lo brode} =3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } t= he brode".
> =A0What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. =A0For specifying = origin
> we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? =A0Maybe as is t= he case with an
> un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now.

=A0Again, like everything else, this is in the CLL. =A0Read chapter = 10.
Yes, it's the here and now. As for using VI like TAG, I quote froim
the CLL (12.10): "So far, we have seen tenses only just before the
selbri, or (equivalently in meaning) floating about the bridi with
``ku''. There is another major use for tenses in Lojban: as sumti tcita, or argument tags" =A0i.e. VI and its friends are subsets of tag= s.
=A0Grammatically, they pretty much work the same way. =A0The major
difference is how they are semantically intrepreted when used with
"i___bo" where BAI act differnet than tenses.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
> i.e. {broda baku} =3D "broda oc= curs {ba (in the future of) } ...... speaker's
> present/location"
> {broda viku} ?=3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... sp= eaker's
> present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. =A0Clearly genai VI= and TAG are
> entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca= } such that
>> > {mi
>> > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short= -distance-from]
>> > a
>> > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been = "I read
>> > [long-distance-from] a tree".
>>
>> That's the old standard definition.
>>
>> >=A0A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other th= at I want
>> > {bu'u}
>> > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sente= nce
>> > actually means
>> > something else (what it means I don't remember any more).=
>>
>> What it means under the new definition is "I read a short dis= tance
>> from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." = =A0Utter
>> nonsense, as trees aren't lengths.
>>
>> This new definition was invented because there's no other conv= enient
>> way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be ab= le
>> to do. =A0No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use >> termsets for it. =A0Someone sometime got the idea-- either acciden= tally
>> or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. =A0Because it's so<= br> >> astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common= way
>> those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it=
>> official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa.
>>
>> >=A0.ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. = =A0How SHOULD I be
>> > using
>> > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking = about)
>>
>> {mi kelci vi lo tricu}
>>
>> Old School: I play near a tree.
>> New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from i= t is
>> tree. (nonsense)
>>
>> {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre}
>>
>> Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a >> meter. (nonsense)
>> New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree.
>>
>> {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu}
>>
>> Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tre= e.
>> (nonsense)
>> New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty mu= ch
>> the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the<= br> >> distance and origin)
>>
>> {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci}
>>
>> Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit a= nd play.
>>
>> {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u l= o mitre}
>>
>> Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree.
>> New School: Termsets? =A0What the mabla is that?!
>>
>> .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai
>>
>> mu'omi'e la stela selckiku
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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