From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCqntnyBBoE-D-YoQ@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 25 06:33:45 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qwa3v-0000Ve-OQ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:44 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf3201698gxk.16 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QZlRshH9RXExVdsd7lfOkhhxvbpjn7T5nxxDSzyhb1E=; b=XELky1W1fgzwHR4WbJgFuSkf6ciB/sGTYL92HMhCqAjun7dXxMo3LQ//M7h9vhM4Wi hGpASOSpz+RHMH+76b1IoDs7+6ZHgNefMeGfoizOOBtile2CRA2LjhdmvzIdBOOMCsHN LBBpmD+BIRExXsHUgT5VDsFKxVM/WHuDwdVs8= Received: by 10.150.193.18 with SMTP id q18mr120978ybf.66.1314279210935; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.27.38 with SMTP id e38ls1261139anj.1.gmail; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.234.20 with SMTP id g20mr5841867anh.50.1314279208713; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.234.20 with SMTP id g20mr5841866anh.50.1314279208680; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f45.google.com (mail-gw0-f45.google.com [74.125.83.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v10si831369anq.2.2011.08.25.06.33.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.45; Received: by gwb19 with SMTP id 19so2001957gwb.32 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.131.72 with SMTP id hp8mr29818icc.438.1314279208123; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.17.203 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:33:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17f5d582-ffcb-4959-a779-1dc8f65dc272@en1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <201108160910.48825.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:33:27 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Far away From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f367c55fbc904ab547916 --20cf307f367c55fbc904ab547916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > cool. Excellent explanation. So the distinction between {vi} and {vu} > then > > is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the > speaker > > feels about that distance. e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > tells > > us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree > while > > if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speaker > > feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree. > > Is that a reasonable understanding? > > Yes, in the new school understanding. Which is why I think new > school is *bleep*. If you specify a unit of measure, then your choice > of vi/va/vu becomes arbitrary and subjective, and adds not a wit of > objectivity to "lo mitre be li pa", but nonetheless, you HAVE to pick > one of them (unlike la'u, which is completely objective). So now you > have to think "hmmm...is it near? far? How do I feel about it today? > How will my listener feel?". On the other hand, if you really WANT to > communicate a feeling, rather than a specific number, old or new > school just use a selbri tense. > Keep in mind that in the "new school" {va} does not specify _medium_ distance, so if you don't feel particularly short or long, you can just use {va}. > > > So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? I perpetually have trouble > when > > talking about TAG-like constructs. > > {broda ba lo nu brode} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } the event > of > > brode" > > {broda vi lo brode} = "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } the brode". > > What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. For specifying origin > > we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? Maybe as is the case with > an > > un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now. > > Again, like everything else, this is in the CLL. Read chapter 10. > Yes, it's the here and now. As for using VI like TAG, I quote froim > the CLL (12.10): "So far, we have seen tenses only just before the > selbri, or (equivalently in meaning) floating about the bridi with > ``ku''. There is another major use for tenses in Lojban: as sumti > tcita, or argument tags" i.e. VI and its friends are subsets of tags. > Grammatically, they pretty much work the same way. The major > difference is how they are semantically intrepreted when used with > "i___bo" where BAI act differnet than tenses. > > --gejyspa > > i.e. {broda baku} = "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) } ...... > speaker's > > present/location" > > {broda viku} ?= "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... speaker's > > present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. Clearly genai VI and TAG > are > > entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku > wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca} such > that > >> > {mi > >> > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read > [short-distance-from] > >> > a > >> > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been "I read > >> > [long-distance-from] a tree". > >> > >> That's the old standard definition. > >> > >> > A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other that I want > >> > {bu'u} > >> > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sentence > >> > actually means > >> > something else (what it means I don't remember any more). > >> > >> What it means under the new definition is "I read a short distance > >> from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." Utter > >> nonsense, as trees aren't lengths. > >> > >> This new definition was invented because there's no other convenient > >> way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be able > >> to do. No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use > >> termsets for it. Someone sometime got the idea-- either accidentally > >> or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. Because it's so > >> astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common way > >> those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it > >> official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa. > >> > >> > .ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. How SHOULD I be > >> > using > >> > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking about) > >> > >> {mi kelci vi lo tricu} > >> > >> Old School: I play near a tree. > >> New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from it is > >> tree. (nonsense) > >> > >> {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre} > >> > >> Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a > >> meter. (nonsense) > >> New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree. > >> > >> {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu} > >> > >> Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tree. > >> (nonsense) > >> New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty much > >> the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the > >> distance and origin) > >> > >> {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci} > >> > >> Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit and > play. > >> > >> {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u lo mitre} > >> > >> Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree. > >> New School: Termsets? What the mabla is that?! > >> > >> .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai > >> > >> mu'omi'e la stela selckiku > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf307f367c55fbc904ab547916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Michael= Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> cool. =A0Excellent explanation. =A0So the distinction between {vi} and= {vu} then
> is not so much a reflection of actual distance but more so what the sp= eaker
> feels about that distance. =A0e.g. {mi zutse ne'a lo tricu vi lo m= itre} tells
> us that the speaker feels like a meter a short distance from the tree = while
> if I had said {vu lo mitre} we would be led to believe that the speake= r
> feels that one meter is a very large distance from the tree.
> Is that a reasonable understanding?

=A0Yes, in the new school understanding. =A0Which is why I think new=
school is *bleep*. =A0If you specify a unit of measure, then your choice of vi/va/vu becomes arbitrary and subjective, and adds not a wit of
objectivity to "lo mitre be li pa", but nonetheless, you HAVE to = pick
one of them (unlike la'u, which is completely objective). =A0So now you=
have to think "hmmm...is it near? =A0far? =A0How do I feel about it to= day?
=A0How will my listener feel?". On the other hand, if you really WANT = to
communicate a feeling, rather than a specific number, old or new
school just use a selbri tense.

Keep in mind that = in the "new school" {va} does not specify _medium_ distance, so i= f you don't feel particularly short or long, you can just use {va}.

> So at this point, does VI differ from TAG? =A0I perpetually have troub= le when
> talking about TAG-like constructs.
> {broda ba lo nu brode} =3D "broda occurs {ba (in the future of) }= the event of
> brode"
> {broda vi lo brode} =3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } t= he brode".
> =A0What it is a short distance FROM is unspecified. =A0For specifying = origin
> we'd need to use a bu'u or some such I guess? =A0Maybe as is t= he case with an
> un-specified TAG, the assumed thing is the speakers here and now.

=A0Again, like everything else, this is in the CLL. =A0Read chapter = 10.
Yes, it's the here and now. As for using VI like TAG, I quote froim
the CLL (12.10): "So far, we have seen tenses only just before the
selbri, or (equivalently in meaning) floating about the bridi with
``ku''. There is another major use for tenses in Lojban: as sumti tcita, or argument tags" =A0i.e. VI and its friends are subsets of tag= s.
=A0Grammatically, they pretty much work the same way. =A0The major
difference is how they are semantically intrepreted when used with
"i___bo" where BAI act differnet than tenses.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
> i.e. {broda baku} =3D "broda oc= curs {ba (in the future of) } ...... speaker's
> present/location"
> {broda viku} ?=3D "broda occurs {vi (short distance of) } .... sp= eaker's
> present/location"..... wow... that feels odd. =A0Clearly genai VI= and TAG are
> entirely different gi I don't understand ga VI gi TAG
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I originally thought that {vi} and friends were just like {ca= } such that
>> > {mi
>> > tcidu vi lo tricu} would be understood as "I read [short= -distance-from]
>> > a
>> > tree" and if I had used {vu} instead it would have been = "I read
>> > [long-distance-from] a tree".
>>
>> That's the old standard definition.
>>
>> >=A0A while back though, I was corrected by someone or other th= at I want
>> > {bu'u}
>> > and friends for that sort of thing and that my original sente= nce
>> > actually means
>> > something else (what it means I don't remember any more).=
>>
>> What it means under the new definition is "I read a short dis= tance
>> from something, and the length of that distance is a tree." = =A0Utter
>> nonsense, as trees aren't lengths.
>>
>> This new definition was invented because there's no other conv= enient
>> way to specify distances, which is a FAQ and useful thing to be ab= le
>> to do. =A0No one uses termsets, so no one taught nintadni to use >> termsets for it. =A0Someone sometime got the idea-- either acciden= tally
>> or intentionally-- to repurpose ZI and VA. =A0Because it's so<= br> >> astoundingly useful, it's spread to be perhaps the most common= way
>> those tags are used, even though no one bothered to try to make it=
>> official or, apparently, to convince la gejyspa.
>>
>> >=A0.ija'ebo I don't use VI/ZI/etc.. any more as tags. = =A0How SHOULD I be
>> > using
>> > them (given either school of thought that selkik was talking = about)
>>
>> {mi kelci vi lo tricu}
>>
>> Old School: I play near a tree.
>> New School: I play near something, and the distance I'm from i= t is
>> tree. (nonsense)
>>
>> {mi zutse zu'a lo tricu vi lo mitre}
>>
>> Old School: I sit to the left of a tree, a short distance from a >> meter. (nonsense)
>> New School: I sit one meter to the left of a tree.
>>
>> {mi zutse zu'a vi lo mitre bu'u lo tricu}
>>
>> Old School: I sit a short distance to the left of a meter at a tre= e.
>> (nonsense)
>> New School: I sit to the left one meter from at a tree. (pretty mu= ch
>> the same meaning as the last one, but allows you to rearrange the<= br> >> distance and origin)
>>
>> {zu'a vi bu'u lo tricu mi zutse gi'e kelci}
>>
>> Old School and New School: Slightly to the left of a tree, I sit a= nd play.
>>
>> {mi zutse gi'e kelci vau zu'a nu'i lo tricu la'u l= o mitre}
>>
>> Old School: I sit and play one meter to the left of a tree.
>> New School: Termsets? =A0What the mabla is that?!
>>
>> .ua nai bu'o cu'i dai
>>
>> mu'omi'e la stela selckiku
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are= subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--20cf307f367c55fbc904ab547916--