From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCDkdvyBBoEGRCKcg@googlegroups.com Thu Aug 25 15:11:28 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qwi8y-0000ED-Sh; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:27 -0700 Received: by vwe42 with SMTP id 42sf2066086vwe.16 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O1ClXsq2Hf+4FuoaT7Uhz/JM9/f0uXqSC2VVcImLQas=; b=gd2pxkAuq/AeKo+GL7dYQiv8M4c9+9n97vWRdHwH6d+tuk34FiK9fasNrsLi2fXjyL fhLuwnqWJnyEvXWQp7MdGlMEkdvAnjVgokoKUcRiVc+pXt/l/UQGwv3LCkSr/IqC8aSI EzoMdPzBttPEKUz440CIGyf/WHkdZu6QT8LJo= Received: by 10.220.181.140 with SMTP id by12mr151084vcb.15.1314310275864; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.28.171 with SMTP id c11ls332290vdh.1.gmail; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.184.233 with SMTP id ex9mr344642vdc.3.1314310275175; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.184.233 with SMTP id ex9mr344641vdc.3.1314310275165; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f180.google.com (mail-vx0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh5si1459564vdc.3.2011.08.25.15.11.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.180; Received: by vxh15 with SMTP id 15so2712477vxh.25 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.68.232 with SMTP id z8mr379964vdt.251.1314310275032; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.169.38 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:11:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110825090633.GC13699@gonzales> References: <20110820105209.GD25668@SDF.ORG> <20110820195330.GB19624@SDF.ORG> <20110822102301.GA24775@SDF.ORG> <20110823230437.GC19213@gonzales> <20110824154151.GA3105@gonzales> <20110825090633.GC13699@gonzales> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:11:14 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > I think I now agree that Carlsonite Kinds are an appropriate way of > handling {lo'e} and can consistently be allowed as a reading of {lo}. > > I do still have a couple of questions about how Kinds should work in > Lojban. > > Firstly: there is the question of whether Kinds are in our domain of > quantification. My answer is that sometimes they are and sometimes they are not, depending on what "our domain of quantification" happens to be at the time. > I think the answer has to be no, because it interferes with our usual > ideas of quantification. For example, if I have two children A and B, it > seems we would have to admit > =A0 =A0mi rirni ci da .i je sa'e lo'i se rirni be mi cu du .abu ce by ce = lo'e > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0se rirni be mi, > which is just silly. Right. Kinds aren't quantified together with their manifestations, and we rarely want to quantify over kinds of children, and especially in the panzi rather than the verba sense of "child". But that doesn't mean we never want to quantify over kinds. We should be able to say things like "I have two favourite desserts". > So we have to accept that {lo'e mulna'u du da} and {lo'e pemfinti cu > finti da poi pemci} are both false. This does seem to agree with English > bare plurals - "natural numbers are equal to something" and "poets write > some poems" are both false. Would you object to "natural numbers are equal to something (namely themselves)" and "poets write some poems, but most poems are written by non-poets"? I wouldn't. > Secondly, there's the simple question of what *is* true of Kinds. This > doesn't seem to be seriously addressed by Carlson or his progeny, but we > have to address it. > > The non-commutativity example above narrows our options, but I see > nothing wrong with declaring: > lo'e broda cu brodi lo'e brodu > iff > the set { (x,y) | broda(x) /\ brodu(y) /\ brodi(x,y) } is Large in > { (x,y) | broda(x) /\ brodu(y) } But I want to be able to say "dogs have been known to eat carrots" even when the set { (x,y) | dog(x) /\ carrot(y) /\ eat(x,y) } does not seem to be Large in { (x,y) | dog(x) /\ carrot(y) } > where the Large subsets form a contextually defined filter - i.e. the > intersection of Large and Large is Large, and the empty set is not > Large. > > Working directly with the product like this avoids the non-commutativity > problems (failure of Fubini). > > Some predications will not be assigned a truth value (i.e. we don't > require the filter to be an ultrafilter); e.g. it would be reasonable > for {lo'e mulna'u cu mleca lo'e mulna'u} to be neither true nor false. > Similarly for {lo'e narmecmulna'u}. > > It's crucial that brodi was a basic predicate, not something involving > quantifiers, but that's fine. > > Problem: this doesn't give a natural translation of e.g. "poets write > poems". Under the above semantics, {lo'e pemfinti cu finti lo'e pemci} > is probably false, and so is {lo'e pemfinti cu finti su'o pemci}. {lo'e > pemfinti cu ckaji lo ka finti su'o pemci} would be true, but maybe > that's cheating. > > Thoughts? I think most of the problem is in getting levels of abstraction mixed up. (And by this I don't mean just two levels of abstraction, concrete and abstract, but lots and lots of levels with different degree of abstraction.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.