From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDHivPxBBoE1WufKw@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 05 21:38:58 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QpYeo-0002XN-Dw; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:58 -0700 Received: by wwf4 with SMTP id 4sf2273438wwf.16 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fJWsAlutxmiiNVvCBa/SESIyDJwOqBh3jRtW2bTfT9U=; b=bJxHFmtVuo8MzYGXw6bmWpMoQlHv3KmBrpip3IvJ1kFOowCzIysnKWsLuRKjDBUlhc 0KTeNUOwjdUNfTkYQVDr7gXc0qVyHmvSJLa1xPqLjxs7kviXwyqQi4iJcqbIFRLchqBY MT8UzyMBVAjqG+jkRZGPvi1JboL0Usr1EHsEU= Received: by 10.217.6.136 with SMTP id y8mr1042729wes.27.1312605511110; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.88.140 with SMTP id a12ls10441055wef.2.gmail; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.61.6 with SMTP id v6mr89366wec.3.1312605510405; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.61.6 with SMTP id v6mr89365wec.3.1312605510379; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c25si5847894wbp.1.2011.08.05.21.38.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by mail-ww0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 36so1823106wwi.19 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.170.7 with SMTP id o7mr2956892wel.33.1312605510101; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.26.65 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 21:38:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 00:38:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e652e24e28ea2e04a9cec9bb --0016e652e24e28ea2e04a9cec9bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 hmmm, I dunno. For some reason I remember thinking that {mi ca cmila} breaks down as: mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (even if it should be grammatical?) If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and {nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri then {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be saying {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca *[ku]* nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} making the {nu lo damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. So at this point you're in the form {broda ca brode}? On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be > grammatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could be > put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any > requirements/arguments/expectations. > > stevo > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I didn't think what you said was even grammatical. >> >> {nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. I believe TAG expects a >> sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. At least, jboski seems to choke >> when it gets to {nu} >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> >>> Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there a >>> difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? It seems >>> like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying", vs. "while they're >>> dying". >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>>> since po'o is a UI it modifies the preceding word so wouldn't you want >>>> {lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca [lo?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Klingon, but I >>>>> think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead. >>>>> >>>>> po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o >>>>> >>>>> stevo >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>> >>>>>> cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba >>>>>> >>>>>> stevo >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> No, none of those is a replacement proverb. >>>>>>> In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlhegh) is >>>>>>> uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e.g., by >>>>>>> committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okrand, >>>>>>> include: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' >>>>>>> Set fire on the side when there is danger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' >>>>>>> A great warrior is always prepared. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HIvqa' veqlargh >>>>>>> The Fek'lhr strikes again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can >>>>>>> be used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are >>>>>>> also completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in >>>>>>> other cultures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>> (aka lay'tel SIvten) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hmm, I assume that by "Klingong replacement proverbs" you mean (for >>>>>>>> example) some of the entires here: >>>>>>>> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galxe ze'i lo >>>>>>>> pa nicte >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just a thought. >>>>>>>>> Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Curiouser and curiouser. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e652e24e28ea2e04a9cec9bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmmm, I dunno. =A0For some reason I remember thinking that {mi ca cmila} br= eaks down as:
mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila

given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (even= if it should be grammatical?)

If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and<= /div>
{nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri
then
{po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be saying= {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca [ku] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} mak= ing the {nu lo damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. =A0So at this = point you're in the form {broda ca brode}?

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAdd= ict <lytlesw@gmai= l.com> wrote:
If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be gra= mmatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could = be put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any requirements/a= rguments/expectations.
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't think what you said was = even grammatical.=20

{nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. =A0I believe TAG expect= s a sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. =A0At least, jboski see= ms to choke when it gets to {nu}

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there= a difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? = It seems like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying",= vs. "while they're dying".
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
since po'o is a UI it modifies th= e preceding word so wouldn't you want {lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca [l= o?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}?=20


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Kli= ngon, but I think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead= .
=A0
po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
No, none of those is a replacement proverb.
In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlh= egh) is uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e= .g., by committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor.=
=A0
Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okr= and, include:
=A0
DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' g= hu'
Set fire on the side when there i= s danger.
=A0
reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' =
A great warrior is always prepare= d.
=A0
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

HIvqa' veqlargh
= The Fek'lhr strikes again.
=A0
The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can be= used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are a= lso completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in= other cultures.
=A0
stevo
(aka lay'tel SIvten)

=A0
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm, I assume that by "Klingong = replacement proverbs" you mean (for example) some of the entires here:= =A0http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs=20

lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galx= e=A0ze'i lo pa nicte


On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict <<= a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:
Just a thought.
Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban.
=A0
Curiouser and curiouser.
=A0
stevo

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