From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRDqlvPxBBoEgZsLMw@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 05 22:05:13 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QpZ4A-0003Sz-0l; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:05:13 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf1057672fxd.16 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TrqerlhHLr5UMuzK/9wU/zxmNs26+QN9OEQ52iXY1vk=; b=YGww5icAGoIpqwvKihUJdYzmZIy8vrm+rBhZ2VSonXucZ3FNN5sGM/ngPD4GgGzuMB uzcuOywBJids0itcnHetkt4Yke65HT3DGo26EinfeFEc/aCVBhMD1U8CABuJq3AbhMr3 /IwvgsvNA1inGxyHvFiBNM7pc10BnnSzYHe0E= Received: by 10.223.17.80 with SMTP id r16mr219221faa.30.1312607082681; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.145.156 with SMTP id d28ls2102094bkv.1.gmail; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.136 with SMTP id w8mr338580bkt.12.1312607081472; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.136 with SMTP id w8mr338579bkt.12.1312607081436; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f48.google.com (mail-fx0-f48.google.com [209.85.161.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d14si1645571fac.3.2011.08.05.22.04.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.48; Received: by mail-fx0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 7so1461483fxg.7 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.5.212 with SMTP id 20mr4033194faw.40.1312607081145; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:04:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.72.11 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:04:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 01:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174737aacd243804a9cf2699 --0015174737aacd243804a9cf2699 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Now I'm lost. I don't understand {caku}. stevo On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > hmmm, I dunno. For some reason I remember thinking that {mi ca cmila} > breaks down as: > mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila > > given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (even if it > should be grammatical?) > > If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and > {nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri > then > {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be saying {po'o lo > bebna cu cmila ca *[ku]* nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} making the {nu lo > damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. So at this point you're in > the form {broda ca brode}? > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > >> If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be >> grammatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could be >> put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any >> requirements/arguments/expectations. >> >> stevo >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> I didn't think what you said was even grammatical. >>> >>> {nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. I believe TAG expects a >>> sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. At least, jboski seems to choke >>> when it gets to {nu} >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> >>>> Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there a >>>> difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? It seems >>>> like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying", vs. "while they're >>>> dying". >>>> >>>> stevo >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>> >>>>> since po'o is a UI it modifies the preceding word so wouldn't you want >>>>> {lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca [lo?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Klingon, but I >>>>>> think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead. >>>>>> >>>>>> po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o >>>>>> >>>>>> stevo >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, none of those is a replacement proverb. >>>>>>>> In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlhegh) is >>>>>>>> uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e.g., by >>>>>>>> committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okrand, >>>>>>>> include: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' >>>>>>>> Set fire on the side when there is danger. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' >>>>>>>> A great warrior is always prepared. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> HIvqa' veqlargh >>>>>>>> The Fek'lhr strikes again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can >>>>>>>> be used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are >>>>>>>> also completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in >>>>>>>> other cultures. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>> (aka lay'tel SIvten) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hmm, I assume that by "Klingong replacement proverbs" you mean (for >>>>>>>>> example) some of the entires here: >>>>>>>>> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galxe ze'i lo >>>>>>>>> pa nicte >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just a thought. >>>>>>>>>> Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Curiouser and curiouser. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174737aacd243804a9cf2699 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now I'm lost. I don't understand {caku}.=A0
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
hmmm, I dunno. =A0For some reaso= n I remember thinking that {mi ca cmila} breaks down as:=20
mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila

given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (e= ven if it should be grammatical?)

If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and
{nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri
then
{po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be sa= ying {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca [ku] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}= making the {nu lo damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. =A0So at t= his point you're in the form {broda ca brode}?=20


On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be gra= mmatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could = be put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any requirements/a= rguments/expectations.
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't think what you said= was even grammatical.=20

{nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. =A0I believe TAG expect= s a sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. =A0At least, jboski see= ms to choke when it gets to {nu}

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there= a difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? = It seems like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying",= vs. "while they're dying".
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
since po'o is a UI it modifi= es the preceding word so wouldn't you want {lo bebna po'o cu cmila = ca [lo?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}?=20


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Kli= ngon, but I think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead= .
=A0
po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
No, none of those is a replacement proverb.
In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlh= egh) is uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e= .g., by committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor.=
=A0
Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okr= and, include:
=A0
DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' g= hu'
Set fire on the side when there i= s danger.
=A0
reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' =
A great warrior is always prepare= d.
=A0
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

HIvqa' veqlargh
= The Fek'lhr strikes again.
=A0
The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can be= used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are a= lso completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in= other cultures.
=A0
stevo
(aka lay'tel SIvten)

=A0
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm, I assume that by "Klin= gong replacement proverbs" you mean (for example) some of the entires = here:=A0http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs=20

lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galx= e=A0ze'i lo pa nicte


On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict <<= a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:
Just a thought.
Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban.
=A0
Curiouser and curiouser.
=A0
stevo

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