From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBD-ofPxBBoEc7GO-w@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 05 22:28:47 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QpZRB-000445-LM; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:46 -0700 Received: by wwf4 with SMTP id 4sf2326887wwf.16 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PsiwisE53AQdjy2UvmlkZ0EDOKRJ6mdx10Nyy80/6V0=; b=y9Hw3QfvJpharRZzGBbvjC0CGrvRM7gBnE7rqNZvGRw+ux3IuRYvc12POGxPCSZxdy Gfbed3ydf5UKjia7lzpZeLzE3NJHsP5QUEsCaiEJ9+Hs1axMXkU4oZL6XHChRKX9nlSX dw720OheU2kh9r4L58s9ZvVjnumSX7limftVk= Received: by 10.216.70.71 with SMTP id o49mr380215wed.2.1312608510281; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.106.37 with SMTP id v37ls13952246wbo.1.gmail; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.202.142 with SMTP id fe14mr204096wbb.5.1312608509495; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.202.142 with SMTP id fe14mr204095wbb.5.1312608509458; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c25si5901639wbp.1.2011.08.05.22.28.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.176; Received: by wyg30 with SMTP id 30so711442wyg.21 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.170.7 with SMTP id o7mr2988956wel.33.1312608509134; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.26.65 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:28:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 01:28:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e652e24eea888704a9cf7ba9 --0016e652e24eea888704a9cf7ba9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As far as I understand it, the way tags work is, they take a sumti and then say that the main selbri happens in relation to that sumti. i.e. {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is saying "I eat in the future of the event that I am hungry". Now if no sumti is provided then it's just {mi citka ba zo'e} and I guess context assume that this means that {mi citka} happens in the future of this speech act (i.e. it's future tense). So really you can put {ca zo'e} or {ca ku} anywhere in the selbri to say "this selbri happens 'ca' to zo'e". On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 1:04 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Now I'm lost. I don't understand {caku}. > > stevo > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> hmmm, I dunno. For some reason I remember thinking that {mi ca cmila} >> breaks down as: >> mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila >> >> given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (even if >> it should be grammatical?) >> >> If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and >> {nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri >> then >> {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be saying {po'o >> lo bebna cu cmila ca *[ku]* nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} making the {nu lo >> damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. So at this point you're in >> the form {broda ca brode}? >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> >>> If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be >>> grammatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could be >>> put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any >>> requirements/arguments/expectations. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>>> I didn't think what you said was even grammatical. >>>> >>>> {nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. I believe TAG expects a >>>> sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. At least, jboski seems to choke >>>> when it gets to {nu} >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>> >>>>> Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there a >>>>> difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? It seems >>>>> like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying", vs. "while they're >>>>> dying". >>>>> >>>>> stevo >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> since po'o is a UI it modifies the preceding word so wouldn't you want >>>>>> {lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca [lo?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Klingon, but I >>>>>>> think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict < >>>>>>>> lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, none of those is a replacement proverb. >>>>>>>>> In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlhegh) is >>>>>>>>> uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e.g., by >>>>>>>>> committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okrand, >>>>>>>>> include: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' >>>>>>>>> Set fire on the side when there is danger. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' >>>>>>>>> A great warrior is always prepared. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu' >>>>>>>>> Only fools laugh while warriors die. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> HIvqa' veqlargh >>>>>>>>> The Fek'lhr strikes again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can >>>>>>>>> be used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are >>>>>>>>> also completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in >>>>>>>>> other cultures. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>>> (aka lay'tel SIvten) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hmm, I assume that by "Klingong replacement proverbs" you mean >>>>>>>>>> (for example) some of the entires here: >>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galxe ze'i >>>>>>>>>> lo pa nicte >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict < >>>>>>>>>> lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just a thought. >>>>>>>>>>> Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Curiouser and curiouser. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e652e24eea888704a9cf7ba9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As far as I understand it, the way tags work is, they take a sumti and then= say that the main selbri happens in relation to that sumti.

=
i.e. {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is saying "I eat in the future = of the event that I am hungry". =A0Now if no sumti is provided then it= 's just {mi citka ba zo'e} and I guess context assume that this mea= ns that {mi citka} happens in the future of this speech act (i.e. it's = future tense).

So really you can put {ca zo'e} or {ca ku} anywhere= in the selbri to say "this selbri happens 'ca' to zo'e&qu= ot;.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 1:04 A= M, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I'm lost. I don't understa= nd {caku}.=A0
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
hmmm, I dunno. =A0For some reason I r= emember thinking that {mi ca cmila} breaks down as:=20
mi caku cmila -> caku mi cmila

given that I think you're still not saying what you mean to say (e= ven if it should be grammatical?)

If {ko'a ca broda} -> {ko'a caku broda} and
{nu lo broda cu brode} produces a selbri
then
{po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o} would be sa= ying {po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca [ku] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}= making the {nu lo damba...} into a selbri untagged by the {ca}. =A0So at t= his point you're in the form {broda ca brode}?=20


On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:29 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be gra= mmatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could = be put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any requirements/a= rguments/expectations.
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't think what you said was = even grammatical.=20

{nu} takes a bridi and turns it into a selbri. =A0I believe TAG expect= s a sumti which is why it's always {TAG lo nu}. =A0At least, jboski see= ms to choke when it gets to {nu}

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:16 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think of {ca lo nu ...}. Is there= a difference in meaning, or is it 'just' a structural difference? = It seems like the difference between, e.g., "during their dying",= vs. "while they're dying".
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
since po'o is a UI it modifies th= e preceding word so wouldn't you want {lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca [l= o?] nu lo damba cu mrobi'o}?=20


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
I've been using "fa" to imitate the OVS structure of Kli= ngon, but I think it's better to use an unmarked form of Lojban instead= .
=A0
po'o lo bebna cu cmila ca nu lo damba cu mrobi'o
=A0
stevo

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

cmila fa po'o lo bebna ca nu mrobi'o fa lo damba
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
No, none of those is a replacement proverb.
In Klingon circles, a 'replacement proverb' (qa'meH vIttlh= egh) is uttered by a person immediately after he feels he has lost honor, e= .g., by committing a gaff in public, and thus attempts to regain his honor.=
=A0
Examples from "Power Klingon", an audio cassette by Marc Okr= and, include:
=A0
DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' g= hu'
Set fire on the side when there i= s danger.
=A0
reH Suvrup SuvwI''a' =
A great warrior is always prepare= d.
=A0
Hagh qoHpu' neH HeghtaHvIS Su= vwI'pu'
Only fools laugh while warriors d= ie.

HIvqa' veqlargh
= The Fek'lhr strikes again.
=A0
The replacement proverbs are basically interchangeable; any one can be= used on any occasion when it is felt necessary. The literal meanings are a= lso completely irrelevant. Replacement proverbs are similar to apologies in= other cultures.
=A0
stevo
(aka lay'tel SIvten)

=A0
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm, I assume that by "Klingong = replacement proverbs" you mean (for example) some of the entires here:= =A0http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Klingon_proverbs=20

lo ba'e bajra nanmu cu kakne lo nu ka'argau lo voki'o galx= e=A0ze'i lo pa nicte


On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:18 PM, MorphemeAddict <<= a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:
Just a thought.
Translate Klingon replacement proverbs into Lojban.
=A0
Curiouser and curiouser.
=A0
stevo

--
You received this message because you are subs= cribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this gr= oup, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016e652e24eea888704a9cf7ba9--