From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDzgIHyBBoEzqwqYQ@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 08 13:01:19 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QqW0U-0005PL-4v; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:01:18 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf6290864yxk.16 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZXJUwdpIwZOks6dwTgOlB9RCJUTYIQG/JCtZgNWpLFQ=; b=OXRb1VHDEqcCNvyjUcaw9eF+7GyhiLMU17gf5RJ8XnbfNjLfkLgvTEl+lyu+Ai1Zh5 7KB5IWgSYWVs4/N5C8zyBBO4IGNiQU2uoeWn/zCzxpiYGwWb9YCOuYYWyZhRrmb8C8bj s4SdgvPDPoxtzlt3PXJ8IsC7liSleVpfjjokc= Received: by 10.91.1.18 with SMTP id d18mr1167039agi.39.1312833651443; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.134.9 with SMTP id l9ls8140245agn.1.gmail; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.200 with SMTP id q48mr2179058yhg.115.1312833649978; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.200 with SMTP id q48mr2179057yhg.115.1312833649959; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f47.google.com (mail-pz0-f47.google.com [209.85.210.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y16si1717433ybi.2.2011.08.08.13.00.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.47; Received: by mail-pz0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 2so3870564pzk.34 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.153.2 with SMTP id a2mr6267108wfe.329.1312833649334; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.42.163 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201108060806.15064.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:00:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2bf7e515c3a04aa03e78f --000e0cd2bf7e515c3a04aa03e78f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nu converts a bridi into a selbri. If you want to then convert it to a sumti, you need to put a lo (or a le, etc) in front of it. And that's the crux of your whole problem. That IS what you wanted to do in your original sentence, because the argument for a "ca" is a single sumti (unless you are using a ca as a tense for the whole bridi, in which case it goes right before the main slebri, or "caku" elsewhere within the main bridi). So wha= t you wanted was, as Luke said, "lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca lo nu lo damba cu mrobi'o" lo bebna -> A fool (the x1 of cmila) po'o -> , only cmila -> laughs ca -> at the time of lo nu (lo damba cu mrobri'o) -> an event of (a fighter dies) Of course, "ca" can be followed by any sumti, although not all will make sense. "ca lo dunra" -> in winter. Now, you may ask, under what circumstances would you use "nu" as a selbri? Well, here's an example. mi pacna lo mutce jundi nu pilno zo nu kei ba ti I hope for a more attentive use of "nu" after this :-) --gejyspa On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:36 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 2:55 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote= : >> >>> Here are the definitions of PU that I have: >>> ba =3D after time tense relation/direction: will [selbri]; after [sumti= ]; >>> default future tense >>> ca =3D during time tense relation/direction: is [selbri]; during / >>> simultaneous with [sumti]; present tense >>> pu =3D before time tense relation/direction: did [selbri]; before/prior= to >>> [sumti]; default past tense >>> >>> Each can be used with either a selbri or a sumti. I don't know if they >>> can be used without either: {mi ca gleki} (with selbri) vs. {mi gleki c= a} >>> (with neither selbri nor sumti). With sumti: {mi gleki ca lo nu do zvat= i >>> ti}. >>> >>> >> >> Yes, but you used it in the MIDDLE of the selbri "smila nu", where it >> may not go. >> > > {smila [sic: cmila] nu} is a selbri? I thought {nu} was part of the > following structure, which in {smila nu} is missing. > > stevo > >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >>> stevo >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : >>> >>>> On Saturday 06 August 2011 00:29:31 MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>> > If one can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be >>>> > grammatical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs >>>> could >>>> > be put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any >>>> > requirements/arguments/expectations. >>>> >>>> "mi cmila nu damba" is grammatical, but "mi cmila ca nu damba" is not. >>>> You >>>> can't have a tense marker on the second part of a tanru. >>>> >>> >>> Is there a TAG here somewhere? I don't see one. Or I don't remember wha= t >>> a TAG is. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> -- >>>> La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre. >>>> Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd2bf7e515c3a04aa03e78f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

nu converts a bridi into a selbri.=A0 If you want= to then convert it to a sumti, you need to put a lo (or a le, etc) in fron= t of it.=A0 And that's the crux of your whole problem.=A0 That IS what = you wanted to do in your original sentence, because the argument for a &quo= t;ca" is a single sumti (unless you are using a ca as a tense for the = whole bridi, in which case it goes right before the main slebri, or "c= aku" elsewhere within the main bridi).=A0 So what you wanted was, as L= uke said, "lo bebna po'o cu cmila ca lo nu lo damba cu mrobi'o= "
lo bebna=A0=A0 -> A fool (the x1 of cmila)
po'o -> , only
cmila -> laughs
ca -> at the time of
lo nu (lo damba cu mrobri'o) -> an event of=A0(a fighter=A0dies= )
=A0
=A0 Of course, "ca" can be followed by any sumti, although n= ot all will make sense.=A0=A0"ca lo dunra"=A0-> in winter.
=A0
=A0=A0 Now, you may ask,=A0under what circumstances=A0would you use &q= uot;nu" as a selbri?=A0 Well, here's an example.
=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0 mi pacna lo mutce jundi nu pilno zo nu kei ba ti
=A0
=A0 I hope for a more attentive use of "nu" after this
:-)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:36 PM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:


On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 2:55 PM, MorphemeAddict <<= a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:
Here are the definitions of PU that I have:
ba =3D after time tense relation/direction: will [selbri]; after [sumt= i]; default future tense
ca =3D during time tense relation/direction: is [selbri]; during / sim= ultaneous with [sumti]; present tense
pu =3D before time tense relation/direction: did [selbri]; before/prio= r to [sumti]; default past tense
=A0
Each can be used with either a selbri=A0or a sumti. I don't know i= f they can be used without either: {mi ca gleki} (with selbri) vs. {mi glek= i ca} (with neither selbri nor sumti). With sumti: {mi gleki ca lo nu do zv= ati ti}.

=A0
=A0
=A0 Yes, but you used it in the MIDDLE of the selbri "smila nu&qu= ot;, where it may not go.
=A0
{smila [sic: cmila] nu} is a selbri? I thought {nu} was part of the fo= llowing structure, which in {smila nu} is missing.
=A0
stevo
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa=
=A0
=A0
stevo
=A0
On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu= > wrote:
On Saturday 06 August 2011 00:29:31 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> If o= ne can say {mi ca cmila}, then {mi ca nu cmila} should also be
> gram= matical, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I thought TAGs could > be put just about anywhere, and that they don't have any
> r= equirements/arguments/expectations.

"mi cmila nu damba&qu= ot; is grammatical, but "mi cmila ca nu damba" is not. You
can't have a tense marker on the second part of a tanru.
=A0
Is there a TAG here somewhere? I don't see one. Or I don't rem= ember what a TAG is.
=A0
stevo

Pierre
--
La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre.
Le = sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups= .com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups= .com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups= .com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--000e0cd2bf7e515c3a04aa03e78f--