From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDfh4PyBBoEccquzQ@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 08 22:22:03 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qqel9-0005rG-1r; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:22:03 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf4366245fxd.16 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=JmlmHqsxtLGigtOr8aB3SvlLhDSyh9/no1B42zknSSQ=; b=J0dhOJ3Hwo236m4uQd3bhtjzafG5DrOa2CT64eyjgKZbvV1uop/W7lGvpCfR/3Eq0L vF4lVXLwa6lXgmD36kvoLeDdvR8J+GjySqgbSPDnfj/a7B5ypYG6y4I5Oicmo3W2+M85 e7GkGo70AV2mvpjoU6vd+F8GsE7SN1a90knwg= Received: by 10.223.86.142 with SMTP id s14mr379680fal.8.1312867295521; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.145.156 with SMTP id d28ls3754389bkv.1.gmail; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.2.77 with SMTP id 13mr128920bki.7.1312867294381; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.2.77 with SMTP id 13mr128919bki.7.1312867294345; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f53.google.com (mail-fx0-f53.google.com [209.85.161.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k8si1480021fab.0.2011.08.08.22.21.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.53; Received: by fxd23 with SMTP id 23so3017841fxd.26 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.5.19 with SMTP id 19mr230714fat.26.1312867294141; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.70.137 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201108050747.17647.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 01:21:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478d2cb45b6e04aa0bbce3 --001517478d2cb45b6e04aa0bbce3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No, not anything of selma'o PA; a number that is unspecified but considered obvious from context. The point of {za'u re'u}=={za'u xo'e re'u} is that {za'u re'u}=={za'u pa re'u}, which is the current equivalence means that something happens for the >1th time it has ever happened, which could just be the 2nd time it has ever happened. This doesn't carry the connotation of "again", even if it does carry the denotation of "again". Consider something like {xu do za'u re'u klama le zarci}. The connotation of "again" there is that the number {za'u PA} is somehow "large" in some sense; for example, if you went to the store for the 100th time in your life today, going to the store for the 101st time might be surprising if you don't usually go to the store twice in one day. On the other hand with the {za'u pa re'u} meaning it really doesn't carry any weight whatsoever because it isn't surprising that you went to the store at all today and because you've definitely gone to the store in the past. The only real counterargument I see to this is that the universe of discourse can have a temporal scope, so that {lo pa re'u nu mi klama le zarci} could refer to the first time I went to the store *today* even though I've gone to the store hundreds of times in the past. This seems like a weak counterargument to me because of the inability to conveniently specify the temporal scope of the universe of discourse (which is something of a problem anyway, to be frank). mu'o mi'e latros On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > If I understand ze'ei correctly, then {zo'e ze'ei pa} means, basically, > "unspecified number", or, in other words, "anything of selma'o PA", which > means it includes numbers <=1, irrational numbers, imaginary numbers, etc. > Since something must happen more than once to happen "again", {za'u xo'e > re'u to zo xo'e selsmu lu zo'e ze'ei pa li'u toi} does not have the same > meaning. > > When something happens for the 2nd time {re re'u}, it is happening again. > When something happens for the 3rd time {ci re'u}, it is happening again. > When something happens for the 4th time {vo re'u}, it is happening again. > ... > When something happens for the (x>1)th time {za'u [pa] re'u}, it is > happening again. > > > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> If the default number were to be made {xo'e} (which has been proposed to >> mean {zo'e ze'ei pa}, especially now that its current meaning is useless >> with xorlo in place) instead of {pa}, then {za'u re'u} would be implicitly >> {za'u xo'e re'u}, which would definitely work for "again", I think. >> >> mu'o mi'e latros >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>> >>>> On Friday 05 August 2011 01:43:04 MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>> > gunta fa la veklarg >>>> > >>>> > I don't know how to say "again" ('x+1'th occurrence?). >>>> >>>> za'ure'u - that's what it was in Alice. >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> >>> Does "za'u re'u" already contain the idea of 'time' or 'occurrence'? It >>> seems to be just an ordinal number meaning 'further', 'additional'. >>> >>> Does this work: >>> za'u re'u gunta fa la veklarg >>> >>> I also found "krefu", but I don't know if/how "krefu" can be used to get >>> the meaning of 'again'. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001517478d2cb45b6e04aa0bbce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, not anything of selma'o PA; a number that is unspecified but consid= ered obvious from context. The point of {za'u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u = xo'e re'u} is that {za'u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u pa re'u},= which is the current equivalence means that something happens for the >= 1th time it has ever happened, which could just be the 2nd time it has ever= happened. This doesn't carry the connotation of "again", eve= n if it does carry the denotation of "again". Consider something = like {xu do za'u re'u klama le zarci}. The connotation of "aga= in" there is that the number {za'u PA} is somehow "large"= ; in some sense; for example, if you went to the store for the 100th time i= n your life today, going to the store for the 101st time might be surprisin= g if you don't usually go to the store twice in one day. On the other h= and with the {za'u pa re'u} meaning it really doesn't carry any= weight whatsoever because it isn't surprising that you went to the sto= re at all today and because you've definitely gone to the store in the = past.

The only real counterargument I see to this is that the universe of dis= course can have a temporal scope, so that {lo pa re'u nu mi klama le za= rci} could refer to the first time I went to the store *today* even though = I've gone to the store hundreds of times in the past. This seems like a= weak counterargument to me because of the inability to conveniently specif= y the temporal scope of the universe of discourse (which is something of a = problem anyway, to be frank).

mu'o mi'e latros
On Mon, Aug 8, 2= 011 at 11:33 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
If I understand ze'ei correctly, then {zo'e ze'ei pa} means, ba= sically, "unspecified number", or, in other words, "anything= of selma'o PA", which means it includes numbers <=3D1, irratio= nal numbers, imaginary numbers, etc. Since something must happen more than = once to happen "again", {za'u xo'e re'u to zo xo'= e selsmu lu zo'e ze'ei pa li'u toi} does not have the same mean= ing.

When something happens for the 2nd time {re re'u}, it is happening = again.
When something happens for the 3rd time {ci re'u}, it is happ= ening again.
When something happens for the 4th time {vo re'u}, it is happening agai= n.
...
When something happens for the (x>1)th time {za'u [pa] re'= ;u}, it is happening again.



On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Ian John= son <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
If the default number were to be made {xo'e} (which has been proposed t= o mean {zo'e ze'ei pa}, especially now that its current meaning is = useless with xorlo in place) instead of {pa}, then {za'u re'u} woul= d be implicitly {za'u xo'e re'u}, which would definitely work f= or "again", I think.

mu'o mi'e latros


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.co= m> wrote:


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Pierre Abba= t <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Friday 05 August 2011 01:43:04 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> gunta = fa la veklarg
>
> I don't know how to say "again"= ('x+1'th occurrence?).

za'ure'u - that's = what it was in Alice.

Pierre
Does "za'u re'u" already contain the idea of &= #39;time' or 'occurrence'? It seems to be just an ordinal numbe= r meaning 'further', 'additional'.
=A0
Does this work:
za'u re'u gunta fa la veklarg
=A0
I also found "krefu", but I don't know if/how "kref= u" can be used to get the meaning of 'again'.
=A0
stevo

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko= cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to th= e Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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