From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCOsYPyBBoE-QvxbQ@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 08 23:50:18 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qqg8X-0007ll-9z; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:50:17 -0700 Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15sf4443962gyc.16 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7rOubbOeA4vXcNlqbP2R7fmKY56kpEqeApGm/l4mxNU=; b=DVHu16wHnLW/qXUQw4eg7WxurbjeMKRo429gp0kyA6ghs/EnScY80fjC2+8TZ9zVp5 I2HaOaRN1fVzh+vuSEXHiKeMJnzaXdaMZQbBtcOBM2Z751NOlL3iM7+uEakXWT8IUERH zoOJAcr4+Qvzq9RRPTJWnA7H89fjU4yLojKFk= Received: by 10.236.143.208 with SMTP id l56mr101134yhj.4.1312872590527; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.224.87 with SMTP id in23ls3949784ibb.7.gmail; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.194 with SMTP id ux2mr1733722icb.38.1312872589632; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.48.194 with SMTP id ux2mr1733721icb.38.1312872589614; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f176.google.com (mail-iy0-f176.google.com [209.85.210.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10si5893716icv.7.2011.08.08.23.49.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.176; Received: by mail-iy0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 35so10477096iyn.35 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.62.149 with SMTP id x21mr7049937ibh.96.1312872589451; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.68 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201108050747.17647.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 00:49:49 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Klingon proverbs in Lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd52afa5462c104aa0cf862 --000e0cd52afa5462c104aa0cf862 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > No, not anything of selma'o PA; a number that is unspecified but considered > obvious from context. Obviously. zo'e (and, therefor by extension, your proposed xo'e) is always understood to be obvious from context. My point is that, just as *anything*is a possible value for zo'e, any PA would be a possible value for your proposed xo'e. > The point of {za'u re'u}=={za'u xo'e re'u} is that {za'u re'u}=={za'u pa > re'u}, which is the current equivalence means that something happens for the > >1th time it has ever happened, which could just be the 2nd time it has ever > happened. This doesn't carry the connotation of "again", even if it does > carry the denotation of "again". Consider something like {xu do za'u re'u > klama le zarci}. The connotation of "again" there is that the number {za'u > PA} is somehow "large" in some sense; for example, if you went to the store > for the 100th time in your life today, going to the store for the 101st time > might be surprising if you don't usually go to the store twice in one day. > On the other hand with the {za'u pa re'u} meaning it really doesn't carry > any weight whatsoever because it isn't surprising that you went to the store > at all today and because you've definitely gone to the store in the past. > The connotation of a word- any word- has no bearing on a word's definition. Connotation is neither consistent nor uniform, even when restricting it to multiple uses by the same person. Connotation is an arbitrary thing, determined by the people involved, the context of the situation, and many and various other factors. There is no way to provide a standard connotation to a word- that's what a denotation is. A connotation is an *opinion*. That said, I do not agree that "again" has this "largeness" connotation. Obviously this is my opinion. I went to the bathroom again. I had breakfast again. I posted a response on this thread again. If you want to add "weight" to a word in Lojban, that's what we have ba'e for. "I went to the store again." {mi lo zarce pu za'ure'u klama} (With weight and surprise: "I went to the store *again*!?" {mi lo zarce pu ba'e za'ure'u .ue klama} > The only real counterargument I see to this is that the universe of > discourse can have a temporal scope, so that {lo pa re'u nu mi klama le > zarci} could refer to the first time I went to the store *today* even though > I've gone to the store hundreds of times in the past. This seems like a weak > counterargument to me because of the inability to conveniently specify the > temporal scope of the universe of discourse (which is something of a problem > anyway, to be frank). I'm not a linguist. I don't have anything to say about anything involving the concept of a "universe of discourse". I'll leave that up to the likes of Mr. Cowan e al. mu'o mi'e latros > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> If I understand ze'ei correctly, then {zo'e ze'ei pa} means, basically, >> "unspecified number", or, in other words, "anything of selma'o PA", which >> means it includes numbers <=1, irrational numbers, imaginary numbers, etc. >> Since something must happen more than once to happen "again", {za'u xo'e >> re'u to zo xo'e selsmu lu zo'e ze'ei pa li'u toi} does not have the same >> meaning. >> >> When something happens for the 2nd time {re re'u}, it is happening again. >> When something happens for the 3rd time {ci re'u}, it is happening again. >> When something happens for the 4th time {vo re'u}, it is happening again. >> ... >> When something happens for the (x>1)th time {za'u [pa] re'u}, it is >> happening again. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> If the default number were to be made {xo'e} (which has been proposed to >>> mean {zo'e ze'ei pa}, especially now that its current meaning is useless >>> with xorlo in place) instead of {pa}, then {za'u re'u} would be implicitly >>> {za'u xo'e re'u}, which would definitely work for "again", I think. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Friday 05 August 2011 01:43:04 MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>> > gunta fa la veklarg >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't know how to say "again" ('x+1'th occurrence?). >>>>> >>>>> za'ure'u - that's what it was in Alice. >>>>> >>>>> Pierre >>>>> >>>> Does "za'u re'u" already contain the idea of 'time' or 'occurrence'? It >>>> seems to be just an ordinal number meaning 'further', 'additional'. >>>> >>>> Does this work: >>>> za'u re'u gunta fa la veklarg >>>> >>>> I also found "krefu", but I don't know if/how "krefu" can be used to get >>>> the meaning of 'again'. >>>> >>>> stevo >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd52afa5462c104aa0cf862 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@g= mail.com> wrote:
No, not anything of selma'o PA; a number that is unspecified but consid= ered obvious from context.

Obviously. zo'e (and, t= herefor by extension, your proposed xo'e) is always understood to be ob= vious from context. My point is that, just as anything is a possible= value for zo'e, any PA would be a possible value for your proposed xo&= #39;e.
=A0
The poin= t of {za'u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u xo'e re'u} is that {za'= u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u pa re'u}, which is the current equivalence m= eans that something happens for the >1th time it has ever happened, whic= h could just be the 2nd time it has ever happened. This doesn't carry t= he connotation of "again", even if it does carry the denotation o= f "again". Consider something like {xu do za'u re'u klama= le zarci}. The connotation of "again" there is that the number {= za'u PA} is somehow "large" in some sense; for example, if yo= u went to the store for the 100th time in your life today, going to the sto= re for the 101st time might be surprising if you don't usually go to th= e store twice in one day. On the other hand with the {za'u pa re'u}= meaning it really doesn't carry any weight whatsoever because it isn&#= 39;t surprising that you went to the store at all today and because you'= ;ve definitely gone to the store in the past.

The connotation of a word- any word- has no bearing o= n a word's definition. Connotation is neither consistent nor uniform, e= ven when restricting it to multiple uses by the same person. Connotation is= an arbitrary thing, determined by the people involved, the context of the = situation, and many and various other factors. There is no way to provide a= standard connotation to a word- that's what a denotation is. A connota= tion is an opinion. That said, I do not agree that "again"= has this "largeness" connotation. Obviously this is my opinion. = I went to the bathroom again. I had breakfast again. I posted a response on= this thread again.

If you want to add "weight" to a word in Lojban, that's w= hat we have ba'e for.

"I went to the store again."
= {mi lo zarce pu za'ure'u klama}

(With weight and surprise: "I went to the store again!?"
{mi lo zarce pu ba'e = za'ure'u .ue klama}
=A0
The only real counterargument I see to this is that the universe of discour= se can have a temporal scope, so that {lo pa re'u nu mi klama le zarci}= could refer to the first time I went to the store *today* even though I= 9;ve gone to the store hundreds of times in the past. This seems like a wea= k counterargument to me because of the inability to conveniently specify th= e temporal scope of the universe of discourse (which is something of a prob= lem anyway, to be frank).

I'm not a linguist. I don't have anything to say about any= thing involving the concept of a "universe of discourse". I'l= l leave that up to the likes of Mr. Cowan e al.

mu'o mi'e latros
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Jona= than Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
If I understand ze'ei correctly, then {zo'e ze'ei pa} means, ba= sically, "unspecified number", or, in other words, "anything= of selma'o PA", which means it includes numbers <=3D1, irratio= nal numbers, imaginary numbers, etc. Since something must happen more than = once to happen "again", {za'u xo'e re'u to zo xo'= e selsmu lu zo'e ze'ei pa li'u toi} does not have the same mean= ing.

When something happens for the 2nd time {re re'u}, it is happening = again.
When something happens for the 3rd time {ci re'u}, it is happ= ening again.
When something happens for the 4th time {vo re'u}, it is happening agai= n.
...
When something happens for the (x>1)th time {za'u [pa] re'= ;u}, it is happening again.



On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Ian John= son <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
If the default number were to be made {xo'e} (which has been proposed t= o mean {zo'e ze'ei pa}, especially now that its current meaning is = useless with xorlo in place) instead of {pa}, then {za'u re'u} woul= d be implicitly {za'u xo'e re'u}, which would definitely work f= or "again", I think.

mu'o mi'e latros


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.co= m> wrote:


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Pierre Abba= t <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Friday 05 August 2011 01:43:04 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> gunta = fa la veklarg
>
> I don't know how to say "again"= ('x+1'th occurrence?).

za'ure'u - that's = what it was in Alice.

Pierre
Does "za'u re'u" already contain the idea of &= #39;time' or 'occurrence'? It seems to be just an ordinal numbe= r meaning 'further', 'additional'.
=A0
Does this work:
za'u re'u gunta fa la veklarg
=A0
I also found "krefu", but I don't know if/how "kref= u" can be used to get the meaning of 'again'.
=A0
stevo

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko= cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to th= e Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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