Were it not for Pierre's point, there would be an importan= ce to the connotation. Given Pierre's point this is less important. It's a = little hard to word this, but I'll try. When we say "again", there is a poi= nt to us saying "again". There is a reason why we wanted to mention that no= t only did we do this, but we did it before. With something like {mi klama = le zarci}, the fact that I have done this before in the first place is mean= ingless; obviously I've been to the store more than once, so {mi klama le z= arci} is essentially the same statement as {mi za'u re'u klama le zarci} if= I'm much older than about 4 years old. Anything that makes a phrase add no= thing to a statement should at least be called into question.

I see now, though, that {mi za'u re'u klama le zarci} =3D=3D {mi za'u r= e'u zo'e klama le zarci}, though, and so the universe of discourse is not n= ecessarily implied to be the entire timeline. The effect of THIS, though, i= s essentially the same as setting {za'u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u xo'e re'u} instead= of to {za'u pa re'u} with the universe of discourse considered to be all t= ime. So basically I had my way all along, albeit via a different mechanism.= .ui

mu'o mi'e latros

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 = at 2:49 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:21 P= M, Ian Johnson <blindbravad= o@gmail.com> wrote:
No, not anything of selma'o PA; a number that is unspecified but considered= obvious from context.

Obviously. zo'e (and, the= refor by extension, your proposed xo'e) is always understood to be obvious = from context. My point is that, just as anything is a possible value= for zo'e, any PA would be a possible value for your proposed xo'e.

The point of {za'u re'u}=3D=3D{za'u xo'e re'u} is that {za'u re'u}= =3D=3D{za'u pa re'u}, which is the current equivalence means that something= happens for the >1th time it has ever happened, which could just be the= 2nd time it has ever happened. This doesn't carry the connotation of "agai= n", even if it does carry the denotation of "again". Consider something lik= e {xu do za'u re'u klama le zarci}. The connotation of "again" there is tha= t the number {za'u PA} is somehow "large" in some sense; for example, if yo= u went to the store for the 100th time in your life today, going to the sto= re for the 101st time might be surprising if you don't usually go to the st= ore twice in one day. On the other hand with the {za'u pa re'u} meaning it = really doesn't carry any weight whatsoever because it isn't surprising that= you went to the store at all today and because you've definitely gone to t= he store in the past.

The connotation of a word- any word- has no bea= ring on a word's definition. Connotation is neither consistent nor uniform,= even when restricting it to multiple uses by the same person. Connotation = is an arbitrary thing, determined by the people involved, the context of th= e situation, and many and various other factors. There is no way to provide= a standard connotation to a word- that's what a denotation is. A connotati= on is an opinion. That said, I do not agree that "again" has this "l= argeness" connotation. Obviously this is my opinion. I went to the bathroom= again. I had breakfast again. I posted a response on this thread again.
If you want to add "weight" to a word in Lojban, that's what we have ba= 'e for.

"I went to the store again."
{mi lo zarce pu za'ure'u kla= ma}

(With weight and surprise:
"I went to the store again!?"
{mi lo zarce pu ba'e za'ure'u .ue k= lama}

The only real counterargument I see to this is that the universe of discour= se can have a temporal scope, so that {lo pa re'u nu mi klama le zarci} cou= ld refer to the first time I went to the store *today* even though I've gon= e to the store hundreds of times in the past. This seems like a weak counte= rargument to me because of the inability to conveniently specify the tempor= al scope of the universe of discourse (which is something of a problem anyw= ay, to be frank).

I'm not a linguist. I don't have anything to say about anyth= ing involving the concept of a "universe of discourse". I'll leave that up = to the likes of Mr. Cowan e al.

mu'o mi'e latros
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

If I understand ze'ei correctly, then {zo'e ze'ei pa} means, basically, "un= specified number", or, in other words, "anything of selma'o PA", which mean= s it includes numbers <=3D1, irrational numbers, imaginary numbers, etc.= Since something must happen more than once to happen "again", {za'u xo'e r= e'u to zo xo'e selsmu lu zo'e ze'ei pa li'u toi} does not have the same mea= ning.

When something happens for the 2nd time {re re'u}, it is happening agai= n.
When something happens for the 3rd time {ci re'u}, it is happening ag= ain.
When something happens for the 4th time {vo re'u}, it is happening again. ...
When something happens for the (x>1)th time {za'u [pa] re'u}, it = is happening again.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Ian John= son <blindbravado@gmail.co= m> wrote:
If the default number were to be made {xo'e} (which has been proposed to me= an {zo'e ze'ei pa}, especially now that its current meaning is useless with= xorlo in place) instead of {pa}, then {za'u re'u} would be implicitly {za'= u xo'e re'u}, which would definitely work for "again", I think.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Pierre Abba= t <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Friday 05 August 2011 01:43:04 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> gunta = fa la veklarg
>
> I don't know how to say "again" ('x+1'th occu= rrence?).

za'ure'u - that's what it was in Alice.

Pierre

Does "za'u re'u" already contain the idea of 'time' or 'occurren= ce'? It seems to be just an ordinal number meaning 'further', 'additional'.=

Does this work:

za'u re'u gunta fa la veklarg

I also found "krefu", but I don't know if/how "krefu" can be used to g= et the meaning of 'again'.

stevo

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke= , I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko c= mima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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