From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDxgZTyBBoEZjl9kg@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 12 03:31:31 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrp1P-0004kM-UX; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:30 -0700 Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6sf2067600ywa.16 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sx5EMB2FVaAvVCkDXY6HuELYXGgbsdWeUM7F6J+8Ilk=; b=LsjQ4RivmTHQRQGSjvUYIQEzQEi/r5J8JHFaGEV0m/zozpBO7TFIboi5UWcZNAPxkl DjEUe7nMHS0njIu3lBQ17q+uVmpcoH0t/Ju/FYtp+F7dUJgX6edymVfokVZaZMnRWwYT GRe9Okcl4m218ex9jyWuTnBPcFd0GD5YkO/+8= Received: by 10.91.34.18 with SMTP id m18mr134328agj.41.1313145073519; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.202.200 with SMTP id ff8ls2258845ibb.6.gmail; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.28.130 with SMTP id n2mr752383icc.12.1313145072663; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.28.130 with SMTP id n2mr752382icc.12.1313145072649; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w7si2896614icv.6.2011.08.12.03.31.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.182; Received: by mail-iy0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 1so1317815iye.13 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr1574975ibd.57.1313145072392; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.68 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 04:31:12 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] no stressed syllables in a name From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d6559941ca604aa4c69f3 --0022152d6559941ca604aa4c69f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}. Granted, I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it's definitely there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no stress at all, although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put even /more/ stress on gen than I do on ber. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress would > be > > less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all. > > Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla > cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if > any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no > reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla > should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it > would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for > cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically > represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to > indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress, > but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed > pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If > we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't > morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we > would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d6559941ca604aa4c69f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}= . Granted, I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it&= #39;s definitely there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no s= tress at all, although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put eve= n /more/ stress on gen than I do on ber.

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
> OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress woul= d be
> less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all.

Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla=
cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if
any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no=
reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla
should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it
would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for
cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically
represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to
indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress,
but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed
pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If
we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we
would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.)

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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