From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCC1pTyBBoEDWKQFw@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 12 06:30:56 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrrp7-0006Rw-DO; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:56 -0700 Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26sf6013561wyj.16 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+ekbc7b0FulF04kvPEEsm6XXevNFNu5hVGEAnmt2K2E=; b=ysf3DQQapO4jcNpjSuJzDRIfLOBdhsCS6/9yLOb8xO57rSyq2T/BJbfmr54Rso0Ne0 O95l0M4oeDQGlwPtHWZUJBPxv2qKvQ1+ManSKQf4+ITFJpQusJrU/c310h56eRoMueQR sDwG9xNNsFchK+txSHtgydojRwRzr7s/pgy9Q= Received: by 10.216.182.2 with SMTP id n2mr1099642wem.10.1313155842174; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.134.5 with SMTP id h5ls10735732wbt.2.gmail; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.196.204 with SMTP id eh12mr80425wbb.7.1313155841278; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.196.204 with SMTP id eh12mr80424wbb.7.1313155841252; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fh14si5119598wbb.0.2011.08.12.06.30.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.176; Received: by wyg30 with SMTP id 30so2681190wyg.7 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.36.226 with SMTP id u34mr876584wbd.9.1313155840086; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.23.73 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:30:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] no stressed syllables in a name To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215974c6262130a04aa4eeb20 --002215974c6262130a04aa4eeb20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Keep in mind Jonathan, I corrected myself a few messages back. I'm actually pronouncing it "brgn" or maybe "brgyn" with a really short "y". I should just upload a cynch or something of me pronouncing it. Maybe I AM inadvertently putting some stress on the "be" and not realizing it or something. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}. Granted, > I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it's definitely > there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no stress at all, > although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put even /more/ stress > on gen than I do on ber. > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan wrote: > >> On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> > OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress would >> be >> > less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all. >> >> Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla >> cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if >> any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no >> reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla >> should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it >> would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for >> cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically >> represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to >> indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress, >> but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed >> pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If >> we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't >> morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we >> would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --002215974c6262130a04aa4eeb20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keep in mind Jonathan, I corrected myself a few messages back. =A0I'm a= ctually pronouncing it "brgn" or maybe "brgyn" with a r= eally short "y".

I should just upload a cynch = or something of me pronouncing it. =A0Maybe I AM inadvertently putting some= stress on the "be" and not realizing it or something.

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}= . Granted, I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it&= #39;s definitely there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no s= tress at all, although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put eve= n /more/ stress on gen than I do on ber.


On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan <= jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
> OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress woul= d be
> less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all.

Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla=
cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if
any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no=
reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla
should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it
would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for
cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically
represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to
indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress,
but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed
pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If
we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we
would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.)

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko= cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to th= e Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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