From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDd65TyBBoEMwyflQ@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 12 07:17:16 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QrsXw-00049K-2T; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:15 -0700 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33sf3198999qyk.16 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LnT6mLpfiDHGHSmKbR2/0w9D/RWGPXdDCqjn7mzfOGU=; b=NMdGpWOPWPbwI5lukGfzEscE/hQDxNvv+mD9GRc8XHLk6g6iZfszzNrGqfdt5/TMWG Tso92/Go9f0Pq4jzBUDDBUR2usTk27a9P7BSIs3J3y1zV+giznffHgNQug6GyxVP/IPI 9NfuLWjgnDrL7cV3JWz+PBC4t6SQtD1fZ5gJg= Received: by 10.229.94.198 with SMTP id a6mr72242qcn.11.1313158621746; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.73.79 with SMTP id p15ls6985822qaj.2.gmail; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.27.14 with SMTP id g14mr248792qac.20.1313158620889; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.27.14 with SMTP id g14mr248791qac.20.1313158620879; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m27si4456471qcz.2.2011.08.12.07.17.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.44; Received: by mail-qw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 23so2071591qwc.31 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.29.9 with SMTP id o9mr623627qcc.265.1313158620289; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.227.149 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:17:00 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] no stressed syllables in a name From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 12 August 2011 11:31, Jonathan Jones wrote: > Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}. Granted, > I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it's definitely > there. > I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no stress at all, You never have to pronounce it without a stress in Lojban. Nor do you have to assume that it must have a stress and {bErgen} is the only natural way for everybody, if that's what you mean by "it's definitely there". > although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put even /more/ stress > on gen than I do on ber. That would effectively be perceived as {ber,GEN}. Stress is a relative feature. If the syllable strengths (loudness, pitch, etc.) could be quantified: .[0],[1]. = .ber,GEN. .[0],[2]. = .ber,GEN. .[0],[3]. = .ber,GEN. ... .[1],[2]. = .ber,GEN. .[2],[3]. = .ber,GEN. .[3],[4]. = .ber,GEN. ... If a certain syllable in every cmevla was to be explicitly or implicitly defined as a stress, we would never be able to indicate that ".[0],[0]." or other ".[n],[n]." (same strength) is even *allowed* in accordance with the facts that such no-stress or flat-stress causes no morpho-syntactic ambiguity in Lojban, and many names in various natlangs have no stress. By having the unmarked form of cmevla (ex. {bergen}) to generically represent all its valid stress patterns, we could avoid the unnecessary exclusion of no-stress or flat-stress. That was my point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.