From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCI85TyBBoEMo2iwg@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 12 07:32:56 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrsn3-0008L3-RP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:55 -0700 Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6sf2291450ywa.16 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=POVhmOPv9lYApSM4aZHrD5snh+K0qgyBK6leaogfySw=; b=Z9QkiKIYNDj227KFFWWXN22zMTxlGpXiR7MfLPVOqop1qY1n4HTwCuBieYP91F93z0 +8dxUK8yhz2LAEuQqda3qrVHn1Qu2YlYXgKNr0vtthyK1o5Bbuhvwjo2JUh3qWWLniPs h7eztAK1GB0PMZngLpKagKJ/Zdy2lnMo8zB/Q= Received: by 10.146.248.6 with SMTP id v6mr138529yah.16.1313159560575; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.13.2 with SMTP id 2ls10811366anm.0.gmail; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.195.6 with SMTP id x6mr913726anp.18.1313159558755; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.195.6 with SMTP id x6mr913725anp.18.1313159558737; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm1-vm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm1-vm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.28]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id j18si1089147ybc.0.2011.08.12.07.32.37; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.28 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.28; Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2011 14:32:37 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.118] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2011 14:32:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2011 14:32:37 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 459149.992.bm@omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 17924 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Aug 2011 14:32:35 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5IgnAjQVM1nw9TyiPGnlWMFomjNqOQYSUn7YocIYO6Ru0Zh RFHJnJxFdUagENNbkE19c6trL5peryzF9wsTK.lO4LDCcQ5YCAB2GdSoybcw iXY5Ub9zQJQjyao1HjTlXQN7Lq8XTC8CkNVaTDsufu4u45_YY3C0xm0NLAbZ WArwiYQ0DRMqVFpyeYnFtQLFQe92f19R0UtcV_9MtLreUPP7OleE9fAU9kdL rx5JqOTsuovc3R0c7UcmuWqlmTj6SEV7l2sYrnvl6535p39kskFzxZDVW_Bc 1Sl8PnkQRIi1HeGs6kLneFSKyMn9egmjyNlHbSSaFvRkbN3lR7Yh2g5ENrRj 435CN9ph5rxPiw0G2XoEMErMVXuwnW1O8KEKm3k1ksF8YDdTmIX4qwJhgRIS Oxp7RCep73sFbiIte5pYzoeeqvK8QA.uu5gwpSQNg.GMts9y2X17swqS5x4m QhYoEAKca5TjO Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> Message-ID: <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:32:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.28 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 First of all. get rid of the word "mass"; it has been used -- and misused -- for too many things in Logjam history to be useful now. Now, then, a brief summary of xorlo: 'lo broda' refers to some broda (contextually specified) or, equivalently, to a whole composed of those some broda (a Lesniewskian set -- very different from the usual sets). The expression gives no indication whether these broda are acting individually or collectively with respect to their predicate(s), hence the propriety of conjoining an apparently collective use with an apparently distributive one. To be explicitly collective, one must say 'loi broda'; to be explicitly distributive say either 'PA lo broda' or 'lu'a lo broda'. The referents of all these expressions are the same: some brodas or a whole consisting of those some brodas. They differ only in how these broda (or this whole) relates to its predicate(s). ( 'lo'i broda' refers always to a set of broda and so interacts only in a set like way -- with not particular connection to what its members happen to be.) This theory harmonizes most of what CLL and its addenda say about 'lo' and masses and a few other terms; what is left out is best considered not to apply any more. ----- Original Message ----. From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, August 11, 2011 5:11:34 AM Subject: [lojban] xorlo and masses That is, I know, the kind of subject line to make those who lived through the gadri wars shudder. But my question is simple and hopefully simply resolved. From the gadri BPFK section: """ An individual can be anything, including a group, a set, a substance, a number, etc. {lo broda} can refer to one or more individuals. {lo'i broda} can refer only to those individuals that are sets. {loi broda} can refer only to those individuals that are groups ('masses'). """ From the Indirect Referers section """ lu'a (LAhE) Individual. (Member.) 1. It converts a sumti into another sumti. The converted sumti points to the referents of the unconverted sumti, removing any indication of collectivization if there was any. """ These seem to indicate conflicting semantics for handling of masses. (I'll use 'mass' in the CLL sense, intended to be synonymous with 'gunma'/'group'/'collective'/'plurality') The first appears to indicate that masses are still first-class entities, such that e.g. in {lo tadni cu sruri le dinju}, the referents of {lo tadni} are masses of students, not individual students. In particular, it is reasonable for that {lo tadni} to have just one referent. The second appears to indicate that sumti can sometimes be 'flagged' as being interpreted collectively - the referents are the same whether it is so flagged or not, but if it is so flagged then a bridi involving it is understood to hold of the mass consisting of the referents, rather than distributively of the referents themselves. Admittedly, these two interpretations are not literally inconsistent - you *could* have first-class masses *and* mass-flagging, it would just be very confusing. Is this really what was intended? Things are confused even furtherly by the example given on the gadri page of: lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e krixa Students are surrounding the building and yelling. , which seems (in the context of the use of this kind of example in the lingustics literature) to suggest that the referents of {lo tadni} are acting as a mass in the first bridi and distributively in the second. Which would need the distributivity flag to have third value of "ambiguous", or something like that... Personally, I think the first interpretation (first-class masses which gadri can return) fits best with the rest of lojban - although it leaves open the question of how to specify that you *don't* want masses as the referents when using gadri... {ro lo tadni} is no good, as it could be interpreted as quantifying over some (perhaps just 1) masses which are the referents of {lo tadni}. {lo tadni poi na gunma su'o tadni} is the best I can come up with. Hoping for clarification, Martin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.