From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDcw5byBBoEPzoxDQ@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 12 14:58:02 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrzjr-0002LA-4F; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:58:02 -0700 Received: by yxk8 with SMTP id 8sf5269769yxk.16 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QZyo3tpXruLnUiZKiiIeQP51mLd28bK/VNe7wPhQ45U=; b=W+Ozj/xOYMnPptORFEMoj/MCXE53WXIVY8amy9aQTW/y2mTbBaipEUBwbMRMBByb3D tNKf2/R88MnJ9oIMHh0FKuBH7Dd8c0obWANC9gew7BkYR6fEVXfnH+FP5+3ThA2C0643 FZsSG2/bvpiPdydRyGviyH7kC9I7y3VAIFw6E= Received: by 10.101.200.1 with SMTP id c1mr257787anq.16.1313186268681; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.8.144 with SMTP id h16ls2236079ibh.1.gmail; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.178.129 with SMTP id bm1mr1764504icb.21.1313186267821; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.178.129 with SMTP id bm1mr1764503icb.21.1313186267796; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fc18si3489794icb.1.2011.08.12.14.57.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.182; Received: by iye1 with SMTP id 1so2641694iye.27 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.62.149 with SMTP id x21mr2650692ibh.96.1313186266526; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.68 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:57:46 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] no stressed syllables in a name From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd52afaf0b61904aa56001c --000e0cd52afaf0b61904aa56001c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I highly doubt you pronounce it as {brgyn}, as that is "Brrrrr gun" (ignoring syllable length). As far as {brgn} is concerned, syllabic consonants for me are half-ebu syllables. (Syllabic r, for example, is "er" with a very short e.) So, I say {brgn} the same way I say {bergen}, just quicker, which funnily enough actually makes the stress more pronounced. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Keep in mind Jonathan, I corrected myself a few messages back. I'm > actually pronouncing it "brgn" or maybe "brgyn" with a really short "y". > > I should just upload a cynch or something of me pronouncing it. Maybe I AM > inadvertently putting some stress on the "be" and not realizing it or > something. > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}. >> Granted, I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it's >> definitely there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no stress >> at all, although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put even >> /more/ stress on gen than I do on ber. >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan wrote: >> >>> On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> > OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress would >>> be >>> > less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all. >>> >>> Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla >>> cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if >>> any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no >>> reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla >>> should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it >>> would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for >>> cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically >>> represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to >>> indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress, >>> but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed >>> pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If >>> we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't >>> morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we >>> would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd52afaf0b61904aa56001c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I highly doubt you pronounce it as {brgyn}, as that is "Brrrrr gun&quo= t; (ignoring syllable length). As far as {brgn} is concerned, syllabic cons= onants for me are half-ebu syllables. (Syllabic r, for example, is "er= " with a very short e.) So, I say {brgn} the same way I say {bergen}, = just quicker, which funnily enough actually makes the stress more pronounce= d.

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Luke Bergen= <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
Keep in mind Jonathan, I corrected myself a few messages back. =A0I'm a= ctually pronouncing it "brgn" or maybe "brgyn" with a r= eally short "y".

I should just upload a cynch = or something of me pronouncing it. =A0Maybe I AM inadvertently putting some= stress on the "be" and not realizing it or something.

On Fri, Au= g 12, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wr= ote:
Sorry, but I find that I naturally pronounce "Bergen" as {bErgen}= . Granted, I don't put a /lot/ of stress on the first syllable, but it&= #39;s definitely there. I find myself incapable of pronouncing it with no s= tress at all, although if I want to sound like a twat, I am able to put eve= n /more/ stress on gen than I do on ber.


On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 3:29 AM, tijlan <= jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 August 2011 06:16, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
> OTOH, Lojban *does* have stress, so maybe a final syllable stress woul= d be
> less obtrusive than trying to indicate no stress at all.

Stress is relevant only for brivla. An unstressed (but paused) cmevla=
cannot be morphologically ambiguous, and the position of stress, if
any, wouldn't technically affect the word's meaning. So there is no=
reason in Lojban to think or try to indicate that a certain cmevla
should have a stress on a certain syllable or none. Conversely, it
would be reasonable for Lojban to have no default stress pattern for
cmevla. A cmevla with no stress-marking would then generically
represent all of its valid stress patterns. There is no way to
indicate exactly that a cmevla should be pronounced without a stress,
but we could at least indicate that it does not exclude the unstressed
pronunciation by not marking any, by not having a default stress. (If
we had to have a default for each such phonotactic feature that isn't morphologically, syntactically, or semantically relevant in Lojban, we
would have to have ones for tone, pitch, intonation, etc. as well.)

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko= cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to th= e Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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