From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCZ9JnyBBoEBTgVjQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 13 06:20:41 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QsE8j-0000lv-6j; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:40 -0700 Received: by yie36 with SMTP id 36sf6019329yie.16 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aKDJqN3UYgOhCUqU1z007xAwpIMjBT1dhv/wQckY2+s=; b=Wne0GonK7OxFESImAW8e9KRobqzsWKF/FfWuezlz8I6t3MSG+5KI61lF1bKPVir9Ej kTViJoV1o14p7YGV8123FaLLT75w5MJB6HfN7oXbSEGZCgxB42gIdU0rFsFP0C9P9xIb heBYyvuJ3cF+S5bliDZVCWYmJkgX2nCHtX1uk= Received: by 10.150.145.16 with SMTP id s16mr217574ybd.29.1313241625784; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.13.2 with SMTP id 2ls14075247anm.0.gmail; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.167.36 with SMTP id u36mr2001762ano.20.1313241624389; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.167.36 with SMTP id u36mr2001761ano.20.1313241624360; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.222]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id e7si232920yba.1.2011.08.13.06.20.23; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.222 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.222; Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:20:23 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.111] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:20:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:20:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 39374.75195.bm@omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 35885 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Aug 2011 13:20:23 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: oAWGkwsVM1kKa9wlKMMJZIPKt1vDivJcEeIPA7rdhSjBrTj iTsP8Tc0uoJPHga7hoGFdCDEvzQsgHoBMbm29s8HXsXVdWmppr11qylKg6Y_ xS5EhX63xAGCwVj0RUR6x_JokvUB5XlaJqg_dnjrMHJqQxGCHwcjxRT_wdvM pogknf7O0zRwRGuWLDJB3MwsDX_UJZmgVjqr0ASJ7.ETIFblVMWPbx7a3fXM 1jguGwQpHOmv62ElKTA365Q56yqecGjVUQE8PWmYbZtHxO25CUhja63TysCn bUTeJGdlaRI2.A9V3SH4J_aX51BqEYRt0hGt7B0gts1DfJpvyd7mwGT8zJeI DGXPgI52M_9caRIURjxlgxNeqfSmi0GXoLB58mqWvXR0Mw5D01J9Ns6dQYdV f2iE9i7BKp7yvpuQElyy.t4jUphFfCr2WW142LRRGjFQY0pixoMtMzoRkvlc 3hoQmDz36a0LF.HPLOjNt8YUOivHZ6XQDaba6aEiLEAC15U6Xa0u.0IZ36l6 xKuDbExAUHRnNHBM- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:22 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> Message-ID: <1313241622.3020.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 'gunma seems to have inherited most of the problems of "mass", so I'd avoid using tha, too, until its meaning gets sorted out eventually. I don't quite see your problem with "loi [PA] broda - lo gunma be lo [PA] broda". On the left, we have a whole whose parts are things that broda. The things are individuals, although they may broda either collectively or distributively. On the right you have some thing(s, but the intention is that there be only one, I suppose).that are wholes whose parts are parts also of lo broda. The problem (I guess) is that, in fact, lo broda and loi broda are not different things, they are wholes with exactly the same members in a given context (I hope the "whole" terminology helps, xorxes would say that they just are the same things). The difference is simply that in using 'loi' we specify that the things are acting collectively, whereas, in using 'lo', we do not commit to either type of action ('PA lo broda' and 'lu'a lo broda; specify distributed activity, each individual doing its own thing). Viewed as a bunch of individuals, all of these are the same. ----- Original Message ---- From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, August 12, 2011 10:29:17 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses * Friday, 2011-08-12 at 07:32 -0700 - John E Clifford : > First of all. get rid of the word "mass"; it has been used -- and > misused -- for too many things in Logjam history to be useful now. Fine. I'll just use 'gunma', and hope that isn't controversial too. > Now, then, a brief summary of xorlo: 'lo broda' refers to some broda > (contextually specified) or, equivalently, to a whole composed of > those some broda (a Lesniewskian set -- very different from the usual > sets). The expression gives no indication whether these broda are > acting individually or collectively with respect to their > predicate(s), hence the propriety of conjoining an apparently > collective use with an apparently distributive one. To be explicitly > collective, one must say 'loi broda'; to be explicitly distributive > say either 'PA lo broda' or 'lu'a lo broda'. The referents of all > these expressions are the same: some brodas or a whole consisting of > those some brodas. They differ only in how these broda (or this > whole) relates to its predicate(s). So in all cases, the referents of {lo/loi broda} are entities which individually broda? This appears to be in contradiction with the BPFK section definition of loi: loi [PA] broda - lo gunma be lo [PA] broda (under the interpretation I understand you as giving, the individual referents of the left hand side would generally not gunma, while those of the right hand side must) Or am I misinterpreting something? > ( 'lo'i broda' refers always to a set of broda and so interacts only > in a set like way -- with not particular connection to what its > members happen to be.) This theory harmonizes most of what CLL and its > addenda say about 'lo' and masses and a few other terms; what is left > out is best considered not to apply any more. This harmony remains tantalisingly out of earshot. Martin > ----- Original Message ----. > From: Martin Bays > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Thu, August 11, 2011 5:11:34 AM > Subject: [lojban] xorlo and masses > > That is, I know, the kind of subject line to make those who lived > through the gadri wars shudder. > > But my question is simple and hopefully simply resolved. > > >From the gadri BPFK section: > > """ > An individual can be anything, including a group, a set, a > substance, a number, etc. {lo broda} can refer to one or > more individuals. {lo'i broda} can refer only to those > individuals that are sets. {loi broda} can refer only to > those individuals that are groups ('masses'). > """ > > >From the Indirect Referers section > > """ > lu'a (LAhE) > Individual. (Member.) 1. It converts a sumti into > another sumti. The converted sumti points to the > referents of the unconverted sumti, removing any > indication of collectivization if there was any. > """ > > > These seem to indicate conflicting semantics for handling of masses. > > (I'll use 'mass' in the CLL sense, intended to be synonymous with > 'gunma'/'group'/'collective'/'plurality') > > The first appears to indicate that masses are still first-class > entities, such that e.g. in {lo tadni cu sruri le dinju}, the referents > of {lo tadni} are masses of students, not individual students. In > particular, it is reasonable for that {lo tadni} to have just one > referent. > > The second appears to indicate that sumti can sometimes be 'flagged' as > being interpreted collectively - the referents are the same whether it > is so flagged or not, but if it is so flagged then a bridi involving it > is understood to hold of the mass consisting of the referents, rather > than distributively of the referents themselves. > > Admittedly, these two interpretations are not literally inconsistent - you > *could* have first-class masses *and* mass-flagging, it would just be > very confusing. Is this really what was intended? > > Things are confused even furtherly by the example given on the gadri > page of: > > lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e krixa > Students are surrounding the building and yelling. > > , which seems (in the context of the use of this kind of example in the > lingustics literature) to suggest that the referents of {lo tadni} are > acting as a mass in the first bridi and distributively in the second. > Which would need the distributivity flag to have third value of > "ambiguous", or something like that... > > > Personally, I think the first interpretation (first-class masses which > gadri can return) fits best with the rest of lojban - although it leaves > open the question of how to specify that you *don't* want masses as the > referents when using gadri... {ro lo tadni} is no good, as it could be > interpreted as quantifying over some (perhaps just 1) masses which are > the referents of {lo tadni}. {lo tadni poi na gunma su'o tadni} is the > best I can come up with. > > Hoping for clarification, > > Martin > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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