From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCh_JnyBBoEPoHOLQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 13 06:37:53 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QsEPM-0003IO-69; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:53 -0700 Received: by yie36 with SMTP id 36sf6041798yie.16 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Bf6wjEyJ1oXihsY8MF/BePCXzHlj2IC5REQ4kNqpR24=; b=6XZYxSkDaQ5TTO/L3B92Mz/N9i0uZ1uras7OkAvpydDT/UKrVYCdCnP4tIJ72cdXHV 92x1CcUh9VBrpH+DMYSazC+k/L0K+j7A8H7u4/73jsbe+aE2p7uxBgm9Zhq45cY/XdlT uv1HKhVOZe2pS0WFqwaXa9zAosCBk9+1cI2I0= Received: by 10.236.175.3 with SMTP id y3mr728090yhl.29.1313242658002; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.171.4 with SMTP id t4ls14253607age.0.gmail; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.182.67 with SMTP id n43mr5032998yhm.11.1313242656499; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.182.67 with SMTP id n43mr5032996yhm.11.1313242656486; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.11]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id b5si3085998yhe.4.2011.08.13.06.37.36; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.11 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.11; Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:37:36 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.109] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:37:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 13:37:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 215930.85574.bm@omp1014.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 44752 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Aug 2011 13:37:35 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: mRfhy6cVM1lnMKmvwfqiwzcaeDNH5bLeECpYV85Mk69DXFW xP45wtms2bHmE6OJWqXxWI8XkfP_zlm8TKBemabHlMvEOPiVuw4s7N33X.Vo aWGJr7MpmmpEACuydws_h8rxRaa.ThSnO6zCMEgeMM36O3.q5Iy8jxvZfC.P nKTHY6pljWtN069ZwmP.dYwUtijd6NNORA.2aIgTn8bUf6cVRGjn11BVk8eg TvnsVdD9fHHDZBLlJEE8r3YG0VBJEunR6wbkQxSQWcHV5tkHBLVbAL.uvZr8 ZSQ43oOPEmbyqThAmvn7nncuGXdqIjzQigYtJ_iF2HxNgly3QJe0K9LDucg6 bMqF5oWsYBH2OF_rPyvTcBiIYm8tHHf6s8Jq5kfABzdy0koKulL2yqU_mElU s5GDELJt4jElQCsf7dkhYQmL2kZ4bxX0TvLy3CogH1NncdffhXETeQEm4Loe nm6qWnTESmBFCwWkj9EkTv8M0Zuf.PydWnQehfzBBWuTW6UXn56Qr6h2gRDa tyT5rx9UeSjvbjUHUG_xyLtiRNGW9lAo- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> Message-ID: <1313242655.11074.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 06:37:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.11 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1140516044-1313242655=:11074" --0-1140516044-1313242655=:11074 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, 'pa broda' is more general than 'pa lo broda', the first might be any broda, the second only one in lo broda. That is why it is false, but not controversial. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, August 13, 2011 6:41:53 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Martin Bays wrote: * Friday, 2011-08-12 at 23:04 -0600 - Jonathan Jones : > >> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Martin Bays wrote: >> > So in all cases, the referents of {lo/loi broda} are entities which >> > individually broda? >> >> No, just loi. lo is completely non specific. > >I'm not sure what "non specific" means, but... Non specific means that {lo broda} is not specific as to whether the referents are being referred to collectively or distributively. As J. Cowan said, to specifically refer to them collectively, use {loi}, to specifically refer to them distributively, use {PA lo} (where PA is any cmavo or cmavo cluster of selma'o PA) or {lu'a lo}. {lo} is completely generic, and distributive or collective reference when using only {lo} must be determined via context. This is why in {lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e krixa}, {lo tadni} are collectively {sruri le dinju}, but distributively {krixa}, because {lo tadni} does not specify whether those which {tadni} are distributive or collective. all I'm claiming is that >{ro lo broda cu broda} is a tautology, where {ro lo broda} quantifies >distributively over the referents of {lo broda}. Is this controversial? > How could it be controversial? Also, IIRC, if you are using an outer quantifier, you don't actually need lo. ({PA lo broda} = {PA broda}) -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0-1140516044-1313242655=:11074 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, 'pa broda' is more general than 'pa lo broda', the first= might be any broda, the second only one in lo broda.  That is why it = is false, but not controversial.



From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent: Sat, August 13, 2011 6:4= 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [l= ojban] xorlo and masses



On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Martin = Bays <mbays@sdf.org><= /span> wrote:
* Friday, 2011-08-12 at 23:04 -0600 - Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > So in all cases, the referents of {lo/loi broda} are entities whi= ch
> > individually broda?
>
> No, just loi. lo is completely non specific.

I'm not sure what "non specific" means, but...

= Non specific means that {lo broda} is not specific as to whether the=20 referents are being referred to collectively or distributively. As J.=20 Cowan said, to specifically refer to them collectively, use {loi}, to=20 specifically refer to them distributively, use {PA lo} (where PA is any cma= vo or cmavo cluster of selma'o PA) or {lu'a lo}.

{lo} is completely = generic, and distributive or collective reference when using only {lo} must= be determined via context. This is why in {lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e= krixa}, {lo tadni} are collectively {sruri le dinju}, but distributively {= krixa}, because {lo tadni} does not specify whether those which {tadni} are= distributive or collective.
 
all I'm cl= aiming is that
{ro lo broda cu broda} is a tautology, where {ro lo broda} quantifies
distributively over the referents of {lo broda}. Is this controversial?
=

How could it be controversial?

Also, IIRC, if= you are using an outer quantifier, you don't actually need lo. ({PA lo bro= da} =3D {PA broda})

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fa= ther. :D )

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